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Please Rethink Changing Project Animation

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Jedi Consular
Please Rethink Changing Project Animation

Ramahospitality's Avatar


Ramahospitality
06.15.2012 , 10:07 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Dyvim View Post
Well, ok, but surely you can see there are many other considerations. And power or a powerful "feeling" is subjective and can certainly be accomplished in other ways. Also, how many times did a jedi throw a rock in 6 movies? None. Or initiate throwing anything at a target for that matter? Anakin...twice...in a Vader preview. Luke used choke about as often. Basing the whole jedi consular class look and feel...their signature moves...on junk, rocks and pebbles, is just wildly inappropriate for the IP.

Like I said, there are other considerations. Jedi look and jedi feel. That is why people have been looking for alternatives to the project animation since I was in beta early last summer, and probably before...every build there were multiple posts asking for a change to it...add in the delay mechanics issue that gives your opponent time to react...and well, its been a deal killer for a long time.
If your sole basis for changing the animation is the movies then I personally feel that it's irrelevant. All this take place thousands of years before the movies, so who's to say that Jedi didn't throw rocks way back when. This sin't the same time frame as the movies so therefor any arguments about how the game doesn't match up to the movies is pure wishing. The movies are great, but that isn't why I started playing this game. I play it because I wanted an MMO that is different from the others. Not WoW or RIFT (Rift, which, claimed to not be a WoW clone and then turned into one). Most games lack a powerful feeling a connection when casting or delivering a blow. I was so satisfied when I first used Project I was instantly hooked on the from then on. I don't care if its like the movies, because it has nothing to do with the movies. I want gameplay that I can feel and have a connection with, not feel isolated from. That's why I don't like Disturbance's animation, its a ball of light, woopdie-freaking doo, special.

The delay mechanics are only really relevant in PVP. Which, since I don't PVP I don't really care about. All BW had to do was make the damage felt when the button is pushed, but keep the animation how it was. Therefore, the damage is done and we still get the powerful feeling of picking up a boulder and hurling it at someone. Problem Solved, the other player has taken damage and we get to keep the animation. As far as PVE is concerned its not really gonna effect your overall dps at all, and your burst dps will only slightly be effected because of the GCD.

Therefore I repeat, leave the animation alone, its fine, and we have plenty of other moves that are force and movie Jedi worthy. Just make the damage instant, but keep the GCD long animation.

Dyvim's Avatar


Dyvim
06.15.2012 , 10:40 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Ramahospitality View Post
If your sole basis for changing the animation is the movies then I personally feel that it's irrelevant. All this take place thousands of years before the movies, so who's to say that Jedi didn't throw rocks way back when. This sin't the same time frame as the movies so therefor any arguments about how the game doesn't match up to the movies is pure wishing. The movies are great, but that isn't why I started playing this game. I play it because I wanted an MMO that is different from the others. Not WoW or RIFT (Rift, which, claimed to not be a WoW clone and then turned into one). Most games lack a powerful feeling a connection when casting or delivering a blow. I was so satisfied when I first used Project I was instantly hooked on the from then on. I don't care if its like the movies, because it has nothing to do with the movies. I want gameplay that I can feel and have a connection with, not feel isolated from. That's why I don't like Disturbance's animation, its a ball of light, woopdie-freaking doo, special.

The delay mechanics are only really relevant in PVP. Which, since I don't PVP I don't really care about. All BW had to do was make the damage felt when the button is pushed, but keep the animation how it was. Therefore, the damage is done and we still get the powerful feeling of picking up a boulder and hurling it at someone. Problem Solved, the other player has taken damage and we get to keep the animation. As far as PVE is concerned its not really gonna effect your overall dps at all, and your burst dps will only slightly be effected because of the GCD.

Therefore I repeat, leave the animation alone, its fine, and we have plenty of other moves that are force and movie Jedi worthy. Just make the damage instant, but keep the GCD long animation.
Basically you are saying you dont care about the IP in an IP game. This is exactly what I would expect from someone that likes the junk chunking, tbh. I care very MUCH about the IP and about the jedi look and feel of the class. If this game wasn't star wars based, I wouldnt be here. Also, PvE is only a part of the game. The overriding concern is the mirror paradigm for the classes. And PvP matters as well.

Also, the different time period argument is very flawed. This game is based on kotor 1 and 2, which are even farther back in the time line than this game, and it meshed VERY well with the movie lore about jedi powers and skills. I played them both many many times. Jedi and sith VERY much matched with there movie successors. No junk chunking or pebble storms. So that argument doesnt work at all. In fact, in those games, the jedi lightside ranged attacks were based on force push variants, EXACTLY like we see jedi predominantly use in the movies for ranged.

Now, here is what happened. They did the inquisitors first and made a palpatine archetype. Then to follow the mirror paradigm, they basically reskinned that sith class and gave us a jedi class that has more in common with sith than jedi. Let's face it, jedi and sith do EXACTLY the same things in this game, just with different skins/animations. That is inherently flawed...but ok. Jedi absorb, reflect, enhance. There are all kinds of ways you can translate this into game mechanics, but what we got was a sith reskinned into jedi. OK, but there is still NO reason to make a SIGNATURE sith skill, one we see every sith in the movies use about 20 times, the basis of the consular class and RUIN the jedi feel of the class with junk, rocks, and pebbles. The IP matters. The lore matters. Dont screw with jedi.

The basic, inescapable truth is that the animation IS NOT fine. It breaks the mirror paradigm. That alone means it has to change. Period. Then it is ridiculous with its inappropriate, environmentally ignorant magic junk conjuring. Strike Two. Then it has very little to do with jedi and a WHOLE LOT to do with sith. Junk chunking was classified as a darkside skill in the first jedi knight games, and for good reason. It has NEVER been classified as a lightside skill or as a jedi signature skill. Never. Strike Three. To try and state there is nothing wrong with it is just pure fallacy.

Think about what you are asking for...you want them to leave the animation alone and make the damage tick before the junk hits. That is a terrible design choice in a game based on cinematic combat. You want effect THEN cause. Damage, then the rock hits. I die, then I see a rock come flying at my corpse? Surely you can appreciate how ridiculous that is...what if the whole game was like that? You die, then the blaster bolt hits you? You flop over dead and then the lightsaber swings at you? Comeon, lets use some common sense. It has to be CAUSE then EFFECT. The damage should NEVER tick before the junk hits. And for the junk to hit it takes TIME to conjure and travel. That is why the animation, which might be ok with an activation timer skill, is not now and NEVER will be appropriate for an instacast skill.
The Crystal is the Heart of the Blade.
The Heart is the Crystal of the Jedi.
The Jedi is the Crystal of the Force.
The Force is the Blade of the Heart.
All are Intertwined...the Crystal, the Blade, the Jedi...

Deyjarl's Avatar


Deyjarl
06.16.2012 , 12:16 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Liquid_Drano View Post
I understand. People want Project and Shock to be equal, but the change is one of the few times that I'd say keep the animation over shortening the length. Why not lengthen Shock than? The new Lacerate for Ops is AWESOME, exactly what I was looking for, but this seriously doesn't look like much is happening with the animation. Removing one of the best animations in the game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94RhUCyXoYs
Man that is awful. Way to kill a cool animation BW. You couldn't possibly extend the shock animation to match them up, you just had to just kill project's.
What is your Duty? To serve Emperor's Will.
What is Emperor's Will? That we fight and die.
What is Death? It is our duty.
What is your Duty? ...

Ramahospitality's Avatar


Ramahospitality
06.16.2012 , 07:42 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Dyvim View Post
Basically you are saying you dont care about the IP in an IP game. This is exactly what I would expect from someone that likes the junk chunking, tbh. I care very MUCH about the IP and about the jedi look and feel of the class. If this game wasn't star wars based, I wouldnt be here. Also, PvE is only a part of the game. The overriding concern is the mirror paradigm for the classes. And PvP matters as well.

Also, the different time period argument is very flawed. This game is based on kotor 1 and 2, which are even farther back in the time line than this game, and it meshed VERY well with the movie lore about jedi powers and skills. I played them both many many times. Jedi and sith VERY much matched with there movie successors. No junk chunking or pebble storms. So that argument doesnt work at all. In fact, in those games, the jedi lightside ranged attacks were based on force push variants, EXACTLY like we see jedi predominantly use in the movies for ranged.

Now, here is what happened. They did the inquisitors first and made a palpatine archetype. Then to follow the mirror paradigm, they basically reskinned that sith class and gave us a jedi class that has more in common with sith than jedi. Let's face it, jedi and sith do EXACTLY the same things in this game, just with different skins/animations. That is inherently flawed...but ok. Jedi absorb, reflect, enhance. There are all kinds of ways you can translate this into game mechanics, but what we got was a sith reskinned into jedi. OK, but there is still NO reason to make a SIGNATURE sith skill, one we see every sith in the movies use about 20 times, the basis of the consular class and RUIN the jedi feel of the class with junk, rocks, and pebbles. The IP matters. The lore matters. Dont screw with jedi.

The basic, inescapable truth is that the animation IS NOT fine. It breaks the mirror paradigm. That alone means it has to change. Period. Then it is ridiculous with its inappropriate, environmentally ignorant magic junk conjuring. Strike Two. Then it has very little to do with jedi and a WHOLE LOT to do with sith. Junk chunking was classified as a darkside skill in the first jedi knight games, and for good reason. It has NEVER been classified as a lightside skill or as a jedi signature skill. Never. Strike Three. To try and state there is nothing wrong with it is just pure fallacy.

Think about what you are asking for...you want them to leave the animation alone and make the damage tick before the junk hits. That is a terrible design choice in a game based on cinematic combat. You want effect THEN cause. Damage, then the rock hits. I die, then I see a rock come flying at my corpse? Surely you can appreciate how ridiculous that is...what if the whole game was like that? You die, then the blaster bolt hits you? You flop over dead and then the lightsaber swings at you? Comeon, lets use some common sense. It has to be CAUSE then EFFECT. The damage should NEVER tick before the junk hits. And for the junk to hit it takes TIME to conjure and travel. That is why the animation, which might be ok with an activation timer skill, is not now and NEVER will be appropriate for an instacast skill.
First off I never said PVP didn't matter, ever. Merely that I don't PVP and therefor am not going to assume I know what is best for PVP, so lets leave that one alone. It seems like overall, your concerned with the relationship to the Jedi you see in the movies. While, yes, it would be nice if we had some familiarity with the movies, this is still as seperate entity all tis own, and being different isn't a bad things. (In fact, if you want to play a "movie Jedi" play a Knight. They needed a second Jedi class, so this is what you got. The more movie tied Jedi is the Knight.) The 'junk" throwing as you call it, to me, gives the Jedi Consular a sort of communion with their environment (and thus the forces within those inamnimate things. The Sith threw things more in the movies, so, whos to say Jedi can't throw things more, how it looks is all opinon and we each have our own. I like the way it looked before they changed it for reasons already stated. We're on two differnt ends, and since it is a pure aesthetic decision, we should leave that alone as well.

Moving on to the re-skinning of a Sith, your absolutely correct. I've long said that BW takes the easy way out with fixing Pub issues. Instead of fixing project, they made it shorter, that doesn't really fix the server side lag of project, just minimizes it with a shorter animation. Sith and Jedi are radically different and therefore their moves should be different. So I can understand how they went from a Sith, with mainly force based abilities to a Jedi who uses some elements of nature in their abilities. Class mirroring and balance is important to a games overall performance, put more-so in PVP, which I won't get into, since, as stated above, I don't PVP.

As far as cause and effect are concerned this was meant as a temporary solution, and for not being more clear about that, I apologize. You're right in saying that it would be very annoying, but for a couple months while they work on a true solution, not the BS they are throwing in out faces now, I'd be O.K. with it.

JUST HAD A REVELATION
This might actually work, and I'd like opinions about this.
If anything, they should just keep Project as it is and not call it instant, but give it a 1.5 sec. cast that lasts the duration of animation and GCD. (Or one second, can't remember at the moment.) Then give Disturbance the instant cast. Since it's just a force ball, there is no real animation to speak of and would put it on level with Shock. And while damage caused by either Disturbance or Shock would have to be messed with, this seems a more viable solution after seeing BWs response to this issue. Change the mirrored ability to a different one that can be more easily done as a instant cast.

Dyvim's Avatar


Dyvim
06.16.2012 , 02:44 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Ramahospitality View Post
....

JUST HAD A REVELATION
This might actually work, and I'd like opinions about this.
If anything, they should just keep Project as it is and not call it instant, but give it a 1.5 sec. cast that lasts the duration of animation and GCD. (Or one second, can't remember at the moment.) Then give Disturbance the instant cast. Since it's just a force ball, there is no real animation to speak of and would put it on level with Shock. And while damage caused by either Disturbance or Shock would have to be messed with, this seems a more viable solution after seeing BWs response to this issue. Change the mirrored ability to a different one that can be more easily done as a instant cast.
People have been asking for this "revelation" (switching project and disturbance Ani's) for months and months...giving project an activation timer is a definite improvement. Of course the other ideas, which would also work, because they are also replacements with things that are already in the game, include a saber throw replacement and a force burst replacement. But yes, we agree, replacement is the way to go...

FYI, the community kicked around a 50 page thread on possible changes to project and throw...summary has been edited in at the top of the original post...the disturbance switch was one of the suggestions. But thanks for putting some thought into the problem. That is really all I want people to do...look at the mechanics of the game, look at the overriding lore of the movies and the overall look and feel of the class. And think about what you are asking for...and why you are asking for it...lol. Cheers.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=29235
The Crystal is the Heart of the Blade.
The Heart is the Crystal of the Jedi.
The Jedi is the Crystal of the Force.
The Force is the Blade of the Heart.
All are Intertwined...the Crystal, the Blade, the Jedi...

Ramahospitality's Avatar


Ramahospitality
06.16.2012 , 03:05 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Dyvim View Post
People have been asking for this "revelation" (switching project and disturbance Ani's) for months and months...giving project an activation timer is a definite improvement. Of course the other ideas, which would also work, because they are also replacements with things that are already in the game, include a saber throw replacement and a force burst replacement. But yes, we agree, replacement is the way to go...

FYI, the community kicked around a 50 page thread on possible changes to project and throw...summary has been edited in at the top of the original post...the disturbance switch was one of the suggestions. But thanks for putting some thought into the problem. That is really all I want people to do...look at the mechanics of the game, look at the overriding lore of the movies and the overall look and feel of the class. And think about what you are asking for...and why you are asking for it...lol. Cheers.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=29235
ah, I didn't know about this thread. Cool. Bad BW for not listening to the players. :P

Helig's Avatar


Helig
06.16.2012 , 03:28 PM | #17
I'd rather have them implement a delay on Shock. The Inquisitor gathers energy in his fist for the same amount of time that the Sage picks up and tosses that rock, then releases the lightning bolt roughly at the same time the boulder should connect at medium range.
"I'm not *giving* him cake, I'm *assaulting* him with cake!" - Pinkamena Diane Pie

Dyvim's Avatar


Dyvim
06.16.2012 , 04:45 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Helig View Post
I'd rather have them implement a delay on Shock. The Inquisitor gathers energy in his fist for the same amount of time that the Sage picks up and tosses that rock, then releases the lightning bolt roughly at the same time the boulder should connect at medium range.
The lets delay shock idea should never see the light of day, and here is why. Delay gives opponents time to react and pop stealth or defensive cooldowns. Why should the 6 other classes get the TIME to react to inq/con class insta casts? It would be pure design failure. Why should scoundrels be able to stealth and avoid the rocks or shock? They can be a Shadow's big hit...if scoundrels can do that, then why shouldnt my shadow be able to magically avoid backblast by giving it a 1 second "charging" animation that telegraphs the move and gives me more time to react? The imbalance is stark and obvious. In addition, there are ALREADY skills with animation delays...those are called activation timers...and those skills are called disturbance and lightning strike.
The Crystal is the Heart of the Blade.
The Heart is the Crystal of the Jedi.
The Jedi is the Crystal of the Force.
The Force is the Blade of the Heart.
All are Intertwined...the Crystal, the Blade, the Jedi...

Helig's Avatar


Helig
06.16.2012 , 09:43 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Dyvim View Post
The lets delay shock idea should never see the light of day, and here is why. Delay gives opponents time to react and pop stealth or defensive cooldowns. Why should the 6 other classes get the TIME to react to inq/con class insta casts? It would be pure design failure. Why should scoundrels be able to stealth and avoid the rocks or shock? They can be a Shadow's big hit...if scoundrels can do that, then why shouldnt my shadow be able to magically avoid backblast by giving it a 1 second "charging" animation that telegraphs the move and gives me more time to react? The imbalance is stark and obvious. In addition, there are ALREADY skills with animation delays...those are called activation timers...and those skills are called disturbance and lightning strike.
The main purpose of instant cast on an instant cast ability is being able to use it on the move. By that logic, I should demand Saber Throw to be lightspeed-instant instant cast\instant hit. Same with Frag Grenade. Same with Missile Blast\Heartseeker\a hundred other "instant" cast abilities that connect after a delay.

Do you see other classes complaining? No. The main reason for the Project controversy is that it is one of the most frequently-used Sage skills and that it's not equal to it's Imperial counterpart.

Also, Project isn't something I'd waste a Vanish\defensive cooldown on.
"I'm not *giving* him cake, I'm *assaulting* him with cake!" - Pinkamena Diane Pie

Dyvim's Avatar


Dyvim
06.16.2012 , 09:52 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Helig View Post
The main purpose of instant cast on an instant cast ability is being able to use it on the move. By that logic, I should demand Saber Throw to be lightspeed-instant instant cast\instant hit. Same with Frag Grenade. Same with Missile Blast\Heartseeker\a hundred other "instant" cast abilities that connect after a delay.

Do you see other classes complaining? No. The main reason for the Project controversy is that it is one of the most frequently-used Sage skills and that it's not equal to it's Imperial counterpart.

Also, Project isn't something I'd waste a Vanish\defensive cooldown on.
Really? When a shadow is using particle acceleration plus force potency and you see two rocks coming out of the ground at you, if you dont use it, you're silly.

The issue with the delay on project was more serious and pronounced than say saber throw, which pretty much does its damage instantly, and more importantly, it is pretty much instant on the server. That is why "other classes arent complaining", although in some cases they are...lol. Perhaps this dev quote will help you understand:

"Austin Peckenpaugh (Senior Designer): Whenever you use an "instant" ability, the server receives and process that action without any animation dependency (read: instantly), but the impact VFX and flytext are synced to the attack animation on your client. This is done to make the game look good and give attacks a sense of weight and impact without affecting timing or balance.

There are some notable exceptions to this that are real delays and real discrepancies that we're aware of and are addressing. In the case of Shock and Project, there is a real delay (on the server) before Project deals its damage, and that's something we're fixing in 1.3. The other real delays that we're aware of are in Smash and Force Sweep, but we don't yet have a fix for those."
http://www.swtor.com/blog/community-...e-update-1.3#h


Questions? Perhaps you are ready to rethink your position...lol.
The Crystal is the Heart of the Blade.
The Heart is the Crystal of the Jedi.
The Jedi is the Crystal of the Force.
The Force is the Blade of the Heart.
All are Intertwined...the Crystal, the Blade, the Jedi...