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Noble Sacrafice


Nursejenna's Avatar


Nursejenna
06.14.2012 , 11:40 AM | #1
I am sure this has been discussed in previous forum posts, but here it is again...

Was it really necessary to nerf noble sacrafice to the extent to which it was?

And before I go any further, by the end of this I am sure some sages may agree with me and some will reply and regale us with their epic stories of burst healing for ten hours without ever falling below half force. *Two thumbs up* for you amazing sages...we all applaud you and envy your epic ability.

EC HM...a step up from the difficulty level of the previous content and I was very happy about that. However, it came with a nerf to noble sacrafice making us the only healers in the game that have to tank our own health pool as a means to get force back, without any other ability to actually get force back .. (besides our epic regen rate....bravo).

Now at first I was irritated with this, but oh well. Some EC HM fights require a higher output of healing than any of the other Ops or FPs. Now, is maintaining your force throughout a boss fight difficult? No, not particularily. But on the rare occasion a member of the raid may have an error in judgement and perhaps some unnecessary damage is taken. So some burst healing comes in handy. Call me crazy...but I am sure I am not the only healer that has experienced this. Once this happens, I ususally come out slightly (insert bad word of choice) for force, making the remainder of the fight super fun! But wait!..I could simply hit my noble sacrafice and ask the other healer (hopefully not a sage!) to throw me a heal, or I could ask the tank to pop a CD while I scramble to get some viable force back, OR (and my personal favourite) I could throw down my AoE HOT and hope that it is a moment where others will reap the benefit of it and it's not just a waste of MORE force, stand in it and spam my noble sacrafice with a lower return amount upon each use. WIth that last option comes the added joy of hoping no one needs a heal for a few seconds while I do that or that some game mechanic doesn't smash me in the midst of tanking my health. What's great about the above options is that in one way or another they all negatively impact the raid. Small impact or not, it shouldn't even need to happen.

So again I ask....Was it really necessary to nerf noble sacrafice to the extent in which it was?

It wouldn't have perhaps...oh I don't know...made sense to maybe put a CD on noble sacrafice? Or perhaps just leave it as a lower return rate for each use within a certain time period so that it couldn't be spammed endlessly? Or dare I suggest...even give us a "free" heal like the other healing classes possess as a means to regen force while still being able to heal, even for only small amounts?

I am sure the usual crying of pvp'rs is what sparked such a nerf but please realise that there are PVE'rs as well that may not particulary appreciate such a nerf.

All of that being said, let me clarify because I am sure some of you will either read into this post wrong unintentionally and some intentionally so that they have an opening to discuss their amazingness. I am not saying that sage healers can not heal, or that they can not heal very well. All I am saying is that it would be nice to have a bit of wiggle room for those "oops" moments.

phew...glad I got that off my chest....Now let the trolling begin..

~* Happy Healing*~

Halirond's Avatar


Halirond
06.14.2012 , 11:53 AM | #2
Well said. Can I have your babies?

shadowflit's Avatar


shadowflit
06.15.2012 , 01:41 PM | #3
Happy to help you vent.

Spoiler

Nursejenna's Avatar


Nursejenna
06.15.2012 , 04:23 PM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by shadowflit View Post
Happy to help you vent.

Spoiler
.

I'm not debating appropriate healing rotation here. I am assuming at this stage in the game that most sages know when to use their NS and how often. All I am saying is that it would be nice to have an ability to better stabilize a force pool if an issue does arise. Abilities that the other healing classes have the luxury of. Should the current state of the sage work beautifully like rainbows and unicorns under normal circumstances? Sure, why not. But in reality, rarely does everyone in your raid do everything perfect. And like you said, we are not able to cover for many mistakes on the part of the raid, especially on HM. But I as a healer try very hard to correct any mishaps that may occur and not just say.. " oh well, that's not on me."
~*Nursejen*~
Readers are plentiful; thinkers are rare.

Olostur's Avatar


Olostur
06.15.2012 , 05:02 PM | #5
I lead the raids that Nursejen is a part of. I'd like to step in here and clarify that I always put Jen in the spots hardest to heal (Zorn, Stormcaller, etc) and she makes them look easy. She knows her class inside and out and can heal very effectively. Back in Tier 1 content, she solo-healed Bonethrasher.

I am sure this has been flogged to death, but consider scoundrels. They have Diagnostic Scan (free heal, gives back 2 energy on crits, 4 ticks per use = ~80% chance of at least 1 crit) and Cool Head (50 energy back, 66 if spec'd). The thing to realize in this comparison is that Diagnostic Scan is their isomorphism to Noble Sacrifice; In other words, used regularly over the course of the fight to restore small amounts of energy. Cool Head is an added bonus.

One might try to argue that Cool Head is the result of their much smaller energy pool, but that is also not true. With Pugnacity up, a scoundrel regenerates roughly 1/15th of their energy pool per second, compared to roughly 1/81 of a sage's power pool per second. A sage is clearly intended to slowly run their power down over the course of a fight, ideally hitting zero as the boss dies. Assuming a 6 1/2 minute fight, which is a common enrage timer, they can lose 1.7 energy per second, so effectively you could say that they have a regen rate of 1/67 of their force pool. That is still vastly smaller than a scoundrel.

In 6 1/2 minutes, a sage's effective power pool is 3770 force, compared to 2440 for a scoundrel. However, a scoundrel's heals cost between 15 and 25 energy, compared to 37-51 force. They do fire faster, but they also have two free heals, so their power useage ends up being significantly less than half of a sage's, even though they have over half of a sage's effective force pool.

Now consider burst healing. If things go bad, a scoundrel (starting at full energy) can do 5 Underworld Medicines back to back, hit Cool Head, and still end up in their top energy bracket. One use of Diagnostic Scan will put them high enough to use Underworld Medicine again. Alternatively, they can alternate Underworld Medicine and Kolto Pack three times, for 6 total heals. Compare this to a sage. In the same amount of time, they can do a Healing Trance and three Deliverances. In the best case for force efficiency, assuming they use their Rejuvenate proc on a Deliverance, they end up losing 175 force. That is four Noble Sacrifices to make up for, assuming you spread them out to avoid the debuff, or over half of their health bar. That ignores the force cost of healing themselves back up.

QED.

shadowflit's Avatar


shadowflit
06.15.2012 , 07:09 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Nursejenna View Post
What's great about the above options is that in one way or another they all negatively impact the raid. Small impact or not, it shouldn't even need to happen.
Quote: Originally Posted by Nursejenna View Post
And like you said, we are not able to cover for many mistakes on the part of the raid, especially on HM. But I as a healer try very hard to correct any mishaps that may occur and not just say.. " oh well, that's not on me."
Everything I've read that Bioware people have written leads me to believe they like this state of affairs. We were covering for too many mistakes before, and as part of increasing the difficulty with EC, they cut our ability to cover quite so much. It's not so much our energy regain mechanic that is impacting the raid when it shouldn't, it's someone else's mistake impacting the raid that is showing up as our energy regain mechanic because you're so good at your job that you can still try to cover (and probably manage some of the time).

Quote: Originally Posted by Olostur View Post
snip
I wrote some stuff and thought about it while writing it... so now I've written new stuff heh. I have only healed lower levels as a Scoundrel, so my understanding of that class may not be complete.

Basically, Scoundrels can burst heal (briefly) iff they have Cool Head available, or if the target dips under 30%. Otherwise they stick with baseline healing that fits into the fairly strict energy budget. Sages can burst heal as long as their force pool holds out, and otherwise must drop to the sustainable baseline healing. Sitting near zero energy is pretty crippling for a Scoundrel until they recover, sitting near zero as a Sage just means we can't burst in the near future.

So for burst, we have:
  • Cool Head vs Force pool size: Force pool lets you burst longer and (I think) more often. Also, if you give a Sage 10-15s break at any time, we can effectively reset some of our burst ability instead of being stuck with a hard cooldown timer.
  • Emergency Medpack vs Force pool size: Emergency Medpack provides on demand sustained burst, but is limited by circumstance. Force may be unavailable if a previous burst scenario used it up.

Having now thought about the Sage/Scoundrel comparison pretty thoroughly, I guess I'm still relatively satisfied. I wouldn't turn down another ability - maybe something like Thermal Sensor Override that allows a couple free casts for a Sage (seems more role appropriate to me than something that gives us free force). I don't especially feel its lack at the moment though, and I don't see Cool Head as being an extra freebie that Scoundrels get, just part of their toolset. Our toolset is small... well, singular, but can be used in a variety of different ways. Their toolset is larger, but has fixed uses.

I will also point out I don't have much healing experience in other MMOs, so this could always be a case of not knowing what I'm missing.
Fleur
Night's Radiance
Ajunta Pall Refugee

Thorriin's Avatar


Thorriin
06.15.2012 , 07:41 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by shadowflit View Post
I will also point out I don't have much healing experience in other MMOs, so this could always be a case of not knowing what I'm missing.
If you don't have much experience, then don't talk about it. Plain and simple.

P.S. #1: You've gotten waaaaaaaay off track of what Jen's point was...

P.S. #2: Sitting at 0 energy as a Scoundrel isn't that crippling... You see, there's this skill called Diagnostic Scan... and it regenerates your energy fast.... and it's a free heal.... and it's spammable.... and you should look into that before you talk about it....

P.S. #3: I'd like to know your healing experience.... What bosses have you healed? SM or HM?
Never Tell Us the Odds
Thorriin -- Scoundrel
Daņo -- Guardian
The Bastion US PvP

Justcae's Avatar


Justcae
06.15.2012 , 07:46 PM | #8
I'm just going to keep this short and sweet.

Both the commando, and the scoundrel both have the ability to burst through their power in given situations which may or may not be part of mechanics. They may do this upwards of 3x's per fight depending on spec, and when the cd was first initiated. After bursting through their resources they have the ability to instantly recover as if the previous sequence of events never happened.

A sage cannot do the same.

All three classes are capable healers. The sage requires far more management.

Nursejenna's Avatar


Nursejenna
06.15.2012 , 08:15 PM | #9
Furthermore ...( I know..there is more)...
Let me also add that NS takes a percentage of one's health pool, not just a set amount. So as a sage builds their character and gains more health, they have a larger chunk taken off with NS....therefore requiring more healing to counteract the use of NS. (Win!) A huge difference? no...but again...why? But it's ok because I am sure somewhere BW has a formula telling them that this all makes sense. I applaud the logic.
~*Nursejen*~
Readers are plentiful; thinkers are rare.

shadowflit's Avatar


shadowflit
06.15.2012 , 08:51 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Thorriin View Post
bunch of condescending P.S.s
Yes, I followed the track to discuss scoundrels, it was interesting. Yes, I know about Diagnostic Scan. I also know how little it heals for, and how you'll need to cast it more than once to get your energy back up to high regen starting at zero. As a Sage, half of EC HM and everything below that (but no world bosses). As long as you're performing a competency check as a prelude to discussion in this thread, would you like to offer up your credentials?

In case anyone else was reading my post in the wrong light, let me be clear that I do not disagree with anything Jen said, and just thought it was an interesting topic to discuss. More tools in the toolbox would be nice, rather than hitting everything with the NS hammer.

Quote: Originally Posted by Justcae View Post
Both the commando, and the scoundrel have the ability to burst through their power in given situations which may or may not be part of mechanics. They may do this upwards of 3x's per fight depending on spec, and when the cd was first initiated. After bursting through their resources they have the ability to instantly recover as if the previous sequence of events never happened.
Just going off of Olostur's math, that burst session a Scoundrel does is approximately equivalent to 1/3 of a Sage's power bar. Thus we too can burn through a Scoundrel's power bar 3 times per fight and maintain our sustained healing ability. Problem is that we can - and sometimes do - burn the entire bar in order to recover from a mistake somewhere. We don't have a quick and easy way back from that, but I view that as the tradeoff for increased burst duration.
Fleur
Night's Radiance
Ajunta Pall Refugee