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Marauder Q&A - DPS and you.


Temeluchus's Avatar


Temeluchus
12.24.2011 , 12:05 AM | #41
I always wonder how all these people claim to know or have the best dps spec and rotation when we have no combats logs to parse to prove their claims.

I tested all the Mara specs in various beta builds and all 3 are competitve,viable and have their merits in PvE and PvP but I couldn't give you any solid data on which is the best spec or has the most dps. All I can say is I prefer the pure burst of Carnage over the others, in my opinion.

I guess you could have someone eyeball the damage as you attack something but that isn't very reliable and the damage total from warzones is unreliable due to CC and the like and is wildly inaccurate.
"Men call me Darkstar, and I am of the night.

Moba's Avatar


Moba
12.24.2011 , 12:59 AM | #42
Thanks for your post, its very interesting.

I have a question though regarding Carnage, wouldnt that be a more viable spec because of Gore and the ability to bypass armour 100%?

KammerTime's Avatar


KammerTime
12.24.2011 , 02:39 AM | #43
The Gore armor pen is only for a short time, it costs rage to use, and has a CD with it, 100% is nice but it has restrictions. The ArmorPen in the Rage tree is all the time on all physical abils, no CD, no rage price tag, so over the course of a fight its going to do more sustained dmg.

One of the things i keep seeing is that carnage has burst and annihilation has bleeds. while those are nice they both require procs, and imo the bleeds really dont really scale well.

Some other very nice rage tree abils/passives are reduced incoming dmg and global CD reduction on all force abils. The top of the tree offers more dmg reduction and for marauders this is amazing since and ranged silver mod gives us trouble.
Kamm - SW Marauder - Anchorhead

Moba's Avatar


Moba
12.24.2011 , 04:37 AM | #44
Quote: Originally Posted by KammerTime View Post
The Gore armor pen is only for a short time, it costs rage to use, and has a CD with it, 100% is nice but it has restrictions. The ArmorPen in the Rage tree is all the time on all physical abils, no CD, no rage price tag, so over the course of a fight its going to do more sustained dmg.

One of the things i keep seeing is that carnage has burst and annihilation has bleeds. while those are nice they both require procs, and imo the bleeds really dont really scale well.

Some other very nice rage tree abils/passives are reduced incoming dmg and global CD reduction on all force abils. The top of the tree offers more dmg reduction and for marauders this is amazing since and ranged silver mod gives us trouble.
ok i'm sold, which trees should i level up first. I'm lvl 24 and havent used any of my skill points yet lol.

Zandermill's Avatar


Zandermill
12.24.2011 , 11:20 AM | #45
The reason I didnt go carnage, is. Carnage plays like a warrior from wow. You're super duper amazing when (Gore - In Wow Colossal Smash) is up. But mediocre when it's not there. Ataru form needs to have its generated attacks hit harder. But because they are white hits you don't get bonus damage at all. (Obviously you've got the 30% base line increase from talents, but that's that.)

Basically you have to make carnage the best it can be, you have to pool rage, and your best abilities and drop them all within the gore window for maximized damage. So it's a crap shoot for how things will go. If everything crits in that window, and Ataru is hitting every 1.5 seconds it'll be idealistically within 5-10% of Rage. (Note that if you have the very best gear possible from Nightmare mode, you may come out ahead)

Really the reason Rage over takes, is the sheer ease of scaling. 20% Passive armor pen is precociously overpowered, along with the increase crit for all tech / force.

I could be wrong. But thats just what I'm looking at currently.
Go Sith, or go home.
I was once a Sith Marauder; but then I took an arrow to the knee.
-Desertpunk-
-Anchorhead-

Temeluchus's Avatar


Temeluchus
12.24.2011 , 11:30 AM | #46
Quote: Originally Posted by Zandermill View Post
The reason I didnt go carnage, is. Carnage plays like a warrior from wow. You're super duper amazing when (Gore - In Wow Colossal Smash) is up. But mediocre when it's not there. Ataru form needs to have its generated attacks hit harder. But because they are white hits you don't get bonus damage at all. (Obviously you've got the 30% base line increase from talents, but that's that.)

Basically you have to make carnage the best it can be, you have to pool rage, and your best abilities and drop them all within the gore window for maximized damage. So it's a crap shoot for how things will go. If everything crits in that window, and Ataru is hitting every 1.5 seconds it'll be idealistically within 5-10% of Rage. (Note that if you have the very best gear possible from Nightmare mode, you may come out ahead)

Really the reason Rage over takes, is the sheer ease of scaling. 20% Passive armor pen is precociously overpowered, along with the increase crit for all tech / force.

I could be wrong. But thats just what I'm looking at currently.
I respect your opinions and a lot of your information is based on fact, but you are tossing around a lot of supposition as well. Like I said before, we have no combat logs nor extensive enough testing of all the specs in raiding to know which spec is best and by how much.

I understand you are making an educated guess from the abilities and possibly using mathematical equations to figure such things out, but until we have more data,even with the math, it still remains a guessing game.

Also have to ask, where does Accuracy fit into your stat priorities for the Rage spec? Still 110% then stack the other secondary stats or not?
"Men call me Darkstar, and I am of the night.

Zandermill's Avatar


Zandermill
12.24.2011 , 12:37 PM | #47
Accuracy to 110% still leaves a wide margin for offhand misses. The other thing is, whether or not accuracy over 110 is linear or not. If it is, and it works in a sense like armor pen, then every point over 110% is worth more then the previous point.

At 50 Currently, I'd go back to a figure of strength > Acc 110 > crit - surge > power. The thing with Crit and Surge, they both compliment each other, I'd put crit ahead of surge by a small margin, due to the Rage Tree's additional 30% force damage increase which plays to smash's insanely strong single target damage.

If however, going back from my tangent, accuracy continues to see increasing gains, and acts in a mannerism similar to armor penetration - then Accuracy will be the single go to stat. However, this actually does require significant dps meter testing to find out if it works that way.
Go Sith, or go home.
I was once a Sith Marauder; but then I took an arrow to the knee.
-Desertpunk-
-Anchorhead-

Temeluchus's Avatar


Temeluchus
12.24.2011 , 07:23 PM | #48
Quote: Originally Posted by Zandermill View Post
Accuracy to 110% still leaves a wide margin for offhand misses. The other thing is, whether or not accuracy over 110 is linear or not. If it is, and it works in a sense like armor pen, then every point over 110% is worth more then the previous point.

At 50 Currently, I'd go back to a figure of strength > Acc 110 > crit - surge > power. The thing with Crit and Surge, they both compliment each other, I'd put crit ahead of surge by a small margin, due to the Rage Tree's additional 30% force damage increase which plays to smash's insanely strong single target damage.

If however, going back from my tangent, accuracy continues to see increasing gains, and acts in a mannerism similar to armor penetration - then Accuracy will be the single go to stat. However, this actually does require significant dps meter testing to find out if it works that way.
Ok thanks,man. I have to admit, you have me sold on at least testing out your Rage spec. It is the one spec I mostly ignored during my beta testing but you convinced me to give it a shot.
"Men call me Darkstar, and I am of the night.

DemonSoliloquy's Avatar


DemonSoliloquy
12.24.2011 , 11:33 PM | #49
While I haven't done any LEGIT testing due to lack of combat logs/damage addons, I believe the only support that rage is the best PvE tree is the 20% ArP. It has unnecesary talents for PvE such as:
- Strangulate - The CC on FC is lost on bosses, and nobody should be giving you pushback if you cast it, for the tank should be the one with the aggro.
- Interceptor - Afaik, there are no movement intensive fights in the game atm that require a movement increase, especially after casting a 10m range attack that puts you right next to your target
- Undying - Damage reduction and cooldown reduction on undying are uneeded for you should not take any massive amounts of damage for the 3% to even make a difference nor for you to need the 1 MIN CD undying rage instead of the 1MIN 30 SEC.
- Unbreakable Rage - Nobody interrupts you in PvE.
Also I have not done any damage tests with smash but I doubt an AoE spell would be viable in a single target fight.

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http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#100bIbRrRMcGzZhGb.1

This build on the other hand, I think is much better in terms of single target DPS in PvE.

Every talent compliments each other, there really is no talent point that is wasted.
There is significantly faster fury build-up with this tree due to short fuse and defensive forms[if you ever take damage from side attacks] meaning more Berserk/BT/Predation uses which is the greatest usefulness of a marauder imo.

Another great thing is Subjugation.
It reduces the cooldown on Disruption [Some bosses can be interrupted], and Obfuscate[ Can be used on ANY boss].
Obfuscate is obviously the greatest of these two, for it's basically a 6-second window where your tank has 90% damage evasion. This is great for when any mistakes happen in raid.
So now you have a raid-saving ability on a 45 sec CD!

I'm open to suggestions, and if you all wish I'll post more of my builds.
I love playing around with the marauder's tree for this is my favorite class and I plan on sticking with it for a while.

Fortypopper's Avatar


Fortypopper
12.24.2011 , 11:57 PM | #50
Thanks for taking the time to put this together.