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Same gender relationships clarifications?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Same gender relationships clarifications?
First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

JediMB's Avatar


JediMB
12.24.2012 , 06:05 AM | #4401
Quote: Originally Posted by SirGladiator View Post
I'm pretty sure they're already calling back the original voice talent, to do this expansion (if they arent it sure isnt much of an expansion, haha), so while they're there having them record the romance lines wouldn't take much time at all. Also, you're assuming the lines arent already recorded and simply were never used, they may be already recorded and ready to put in the game once the green light is given.
The voice over work needed is supposed to be why the SGRAs were said to be coming with other story content, since BioWare didn't feel as inclined to call back the voice actors for a free add-on as they did with Mass Effect 3.

And, yes, they've said the "expansion" is going to be fully voiced, so the assumption is that if SGRAs are still going to be implemented at all, the voice work will be (or has been) recorded at the same time for Makeb and SGRAs.

It's just sad that a community manager, writer, or anyone else actually related to the story side of the game can't even answer "yes" or "no" on whether the content is going to be in the expansion.
The Morrowbringer Legacy The Red Eclipse (PvE) [EU]
Deep into that darkness peering, you reach out your hand and grasp what you are searching for.
Now ring the bells that sweep away the darkness; the bells that beckon tomorrow's dawn.

stuffystuffs's Avatar


stuffystuffs
12.24.2012 , 11:39 AM | #4402
Quote: Originally Posted by SirGladiator View Post
Its a common myth, but a myth nonetheless, that somehow its easier to make whole new characters than simply disable the gender check for the existing ones. Its vastly, VASTLY easier to do the latter, as a quote mentioned not that far back in this thread from David Gaider stated. He was just stating the obvious, if folks actually thought about it they'd figure it out for themselves, David just made it easier for everybody to understand .
I'm not sure why people believe this myself. I think it comes down to people not wanting to share "their toys" so they try to come up with odd ways to justify it (ex: "Character X doesn't seem bisexual and their character will be ruined if they are suddenly bisexual." "New characters would be easier/cheaper.").

New characters require a lot of work starting from scratch. Not only would romance dialog need to be designed and implemented, but also all non-romance dialog (and comments that go along with missions/planets). Not only that, but their character itself needs designed and implemented (appearance, background story, etc.).

With existing characters, most of that work is done. They just need to add different romance dialog to work with the other gender (I'm sure some dialog can be re-used from the OGRA).

JCisneros's Avatar


JCisneros
12.24.2012 , 01:29 PM | #4403
Not to agree with them, but overlaying new dialogue (retrofitting) is always challenging. It calls for a new layer of programming (that could 'break' existing dialogue) Frankly, it is easier from a development standpoint add new, independent companions that are SGRA driven. Story is not hard, computer scripting is challenging and nitpicky.

I am not certain that the idea that old companions are going to be retrofitted was ever in the works. That means Theran, Corso, Kaliyo and others that just beg to be SGRA oriented likely will not be.

I could be wrong though.

Taleera's Avatar


Taleera
12.24.2012 , 02:51 PM | #4404
Multiple character attitudes and with them entirely new dialogue trees already exist in the game; the most prominent example springing to mind being Dark Side / Light Side Jaesa. It could very well be necessary to reset people's "progress" with their companions (the cutscenes, not the points) in order to allow them to activate these new alternate paths, but other than that I don't see how it would be much different.
BioWare has also shown that this can be implemented retroactively in various DLC for its Dragon Age and Mass Effect IPs, where a download would change the dialogue of some character in the main game. Different games, yes, but it goes to show that the studio has experience with such subsequent alterations.

The reset itself would be more tricky. The developers likely would not wish to reset every single player's progress with each and every single companion, so it would require a case-by-case solution. Ideally, it could be some sort of mail-distributed ingame item that triggers it, or perhaps it could be an NPC like the one that resets people's skill points? Hell, I'd even buy it off the Cartel Store. :P

Quote: Originally Posted by stuffystuffs View Post
With existing characters, most of that work is done. They just need to add different romance dialog to work with the other gender (I'm sure some dialog can be re-used from the OGRA).
Also important: by now a lot of us have gotten very used to the companions we have. I could be wrong, but as far as I'm concerned, for now I do not think any new NPC could compete with "Psycho Jaesa" who I've come to think of as the ideal partner for my Sith, regardless of how much my own creativity needs to fill in the blanks left by the game's lack of support.

And I think we all have our favorites already, right? How sad would it be if, some day far in the future, we actually do get new companions romanceable by the same gender, only to discover that they cannot compete with someone already in our crew? New companions will actually have to be entirely new, after all, thus very likely not sharing certain qualities (class, voice, personality, ...) we grew to like in the existing ones.

Slaign's Avatar


Slaign
12.24.2012 , 04:29 PM | #4405
Quote: Originally Posted by JCisneros View Post
Not to agree with them, but overlaying new dialogue (retrofitting) is always challenging. It calls for a new layer of programming (that could 'break' existing dialogue) Frankly, it is easier from a development standpoint add new, independent companions that are SGRA driven. Story is not hard, computer scripting is challenging and nitpicky.

I am not certain that the idea that old companions are going to be retrofitted was ever in the works. That means Theran, Corso, Kaliyo and others that just beg to be SGRA oriented likely will not be.

I could be wrong though.
I mean, I suppose no amount of experience in other games adds up to knowledge about how this one works, but I don't think you're correct about the difficulty of adding new dialogue to existing characters.

Modern developers generally don't really do the kind of programming that exists in the games structure and foundation. They aren't writing C++ code to implement dialogue. Somebody has already done that for them. The game is built upon an engine, developed out of house, that handles the base functions of the game. They just make tweaks, adjust variables, and use the tools provided with the engine to make it work as a foundation for their game.

Upon that, they build the specific features of their game. The programmers developing the actual structure of the game then develop a set of "Dev Tools" which are programs with visual interfaces, scripts, menus, and functions to allow the world builders to more intuitively effect changes to the game. If you've ever used the modification tools for a Bethesda game, those tools are what the use in house as well.

Simple additions like new dialogue options likely don't even require anything beyond some very light scripting, if that. They very likely just open up that section of the Dev Tools, find the character they want to modify, and see the dialogue trees represented visually. Then they add and fill out the dialogue options, link in the audio files, and reference the animations.

Certainly the actual process is not a short one, with having to write, record, and animate everything. But I personally doubt that modifying existing companions is harder than adding new ones. In my estimation, adding new companions presents far more additional challenge. Especially because existing companions have lines already recorded that can be used.

In modifying games like Skyrim, I've generally found it easier to add a dialogue option to an existing character than to create a new character all together.

Of course, this is all predicated on my experience with the dev tools for other games, and none of us likely know exactly what the tools the SWTOR devs use look like.

stuffystuffs's Avatar


stuffystuffs
12.24.2012 , 05:53 PM | #4406
Quote: Originally Posted by Taleera View Post
And I think we all have our favorites already, right? How sad would it be if, some day far in the future, we actually do get new companions romanceable by the same gender, only to discover that they cannot compete with someone already in our crew?
Indeed....that's very likely.


Quote: Originally Posted by JCisneros View Post
Not to agree with them, but overlaying new dialogue (retrofitting) is always challenging. It calls for a new layer of programming (that could 'break' existing dialogue) Frankly, it is easier from a development standpoint add new, independent companions that are SGRA driven. Story is not hard, computer scripting is challenging and nitpicky.
New companions would also require the scripting...more of it actually.

I won't say that altering dialog for existing companions is super easy, but I can't see how it's more work/difficulty than creating brand new companions from scratch.

JediMB's Avatar


JediMB
12.24.2012 , 06:37 PM | #4407
I'm with Slaign here. Modern game development isn't like the days of the original Fallout or Baldur's Gate, so it's a whole lot harder to mess things up when adding extra dialogue and such.

But even if it were easy to screw things up, it would still be tons more work to create a brand new character.
The Morrowbringer Legacy The Red Eclipse (PvE) [EU]
Deep into that darkness peering, you reach out your hand and grasp what you are searching for.
Now ring the bells that sweep away the darkness; the bells that beckon tomorrow's dawn.

Tatile's Avatar


Tatile
12.24.2012 , 06:56 PM | #4408
Quote: Originally Posted by JediMB View Post
I'm with Slaign here. Modern game development isn't like the days of the original Fallout or Baldur's Gate, so it's a whole lot harder to mess things up when adding extra dialogue and such.

But even if it were easy to screw things up, it would still be tons more work to create a brand new character.
Even if it's not easy to screw things up, I'm sure Bioware could find a way.

Cheap, I know, but I couldn't help myself.

Also, to Joshigun, have you read the recent stuff about Return of the Jedi? Female erasure.

Extend logic of "there's no gays in Star Wars" to "there are no female combatants in Star Wars" therefore there should be no female playable characters in SWTOR, as all player characters are combatants. Leia and Padme are the exceptions which prove the rule.

Joushigun's Avatar


Joushigun
12.24.2012 , 07:42 PM | #4409
Quote: Originally Posted by Tatile View Post
Also, to Joshigun, have you read the recent stuff about Return of the Jedi? Female erasure.

Extend logic of "there's no gays in Star Wars" to "there are no female combatants in Star Wars" therefore there should be no female playable characters in SWTOR, as all player characters are combatants. Leia and Padme are the exceptions which prove the rule.
I hadn't read those. Thank you for passing them along. I mean, if you think about it, how many women in all six films can you actually name? Heck, just to show how memorable she is, I completely forgot about Shimi Skywalker lol.

Mon Mothma? She's there for exposition. Aunt Beru? She's there long enough to end up a smoldering corpse...oh and in the prequels she has a few lines.

Yeah, it comes down to just Amadala and Leia, and at that point, we women are pretty poorly represented in the movies.
"I am a lizard woman from the dawn of time, and this is my wife."- Lady Vastra, Doctor Who and the Snowmen

Tatile's Avatar


Tatile
12.24.2012 , 07:48 PM | #4410
Quote: Originally Posted by Joushigun View Post
Yeah, it comes down to just Amadala and Leia, and at that point, we women are pretty poorly represented in the movies.
Don't forget that all Star Wars humans are white and cis - and to add to your point, I have no idea who the two women you just mentioned are. I know of Darth Talon (red twi'lek woman), but largely I know of her clothing (gee), fanatical devotion and the highly sexualised media surrounding her.

Gosh, I wonder why

Sometimes it feels like the only reasons the rabid id- fans don't rail against the inclusion of people of colour and women into this game is because a) racism is no longer as socially acceptable and b) breasts.