Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Same gender relationships clarifications?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Same gender relationships clarifications?
First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

Palar's Avatar


Palar
10.02.2012 , 12:56 AM | #2021
Quote: Originally Posted by Baptes View Post
They earned any malice they've gotten and I'm surprised it isn't even more angry than it is. We're certainly a pretty well behaved bunch, considering.
Especially for an MMO player-base waiting a year for even a scrap of information on a feature and going completely unanswered - I saw people on Battle.Net who couldn't last 24 hours without hearing about the next Arena Season.

Uluain's Avatar


Uluain
10.02.2012 , 12:59 AM | #2022
Quote: Originally Posted by Zandilar View Post
As for giving us the finger? Are you people for real? Honestly, I've been put off a little by the UNRELENTING negativity of this thread, and especially the attitude towards EA/Bioware lately.
How, pray, are we to respond then, when nine months of politely asking some very specific questions about the future implementation of this content has garnered exactly no answers here, and one regretful but uninformative staff post that I coerced from the CM by exhausting all possibly modes of feedback?

I am trying not to direct my unhappiness at the Community Team. I think they are doing what they can. I think the Devs are doing what they can. Unfortunately, that amounts to permitting a second thread with a more specific focus but which also is not able to be answered and a half-confirmation of a rumor that we'll be in luck come Makeb. Since March, that's it. What manner of mood do they suppose that will contribute to? What has been done to ameliorate that?

I infer the obstruction arises from some draconian NDA. I hope I have been clear on how I feel that acts against BioWare's interest by turning a pending feature that we ought to be able to happily anticipate and reasonably plan for (since we are coming to it late, and not as we might have with opposite-gender romances, from the very start), and instead making it come across as something too unpleasant or unimportant to address.

If I could directly address those who make the calls as to what may be discussed, I would. But we aren't allowed to see that far into BWA, so all we have are the Comm Team who, I can only hope, have documented and escalated our disaffection over this policy to those able to address it. But they cannot do that unless those very reasonable concerns are explicity and strongly voiced.

We can only speak from our point of view. If that tends to see clouds rather than silver linings, perhaps it is because we have been given little reason to be optimistic about anything. If I could go to the source, I would. I'd like nothing better than to go all Martin Luther and nail a clear message up on the door of the Non-Disclosure Overlords, and it would say:
Quote:

  • Will same-gender relationships be available with current companions?
  • If so, with which?
  • Will same-gender relationships be available for all eight classes?
  • If not, with which?
  • Will new relationship options be available to characters who have already fully progressed companion stories?
  • Is the awaited same-gender content on the schedule to be released with Makeb?
  • Are we still on track to see that content this year?
  • Will same-gender romance require an in-game credit or cartel coin (or any other similar) expense to unlock?

Some of these questions date back to beta testing. Others are more recent, arising from changes at BioWare Austin and in the direction of the game. Clarification of any would be appreciated. Thanks.
Someone knows the answers to these questions, and someone at BioWare Austin can grant approval for those answers to be given. They haven't. What's to be positive about? More to the point, what incentive can we possibly have to be, when the only way we have ever managed to hear anything is by making a huge stink? What else can one make of a situation where that, and only that, has proved effective?

Zandilar's Avatar


Zandilar
10.02.2012 , 01:50 AM | #2023
Quote: Originally Posted by Uluain View Post
How, pray, are we to respond then, when nine months of politely asking some very specific questions about the future implementation of this content has garnered exactly no answers here, and one regretful but uninformative staff post that I coerced from the CM by exhausting all possibly modes of feedback?
Maybe without attributing malevolent intentions to the information that Bioware's writers or devs provide? As far as I'm concerned, I'll only say they're giving us the finger when they produce an official video of the whole writing and dev team specifically giving us the finger. Until then, I will just assume that their words are their words as they appear on my screen. I'd say the writer of the Kaliyo piece wasn't thinking of anything but providing us with a deeper insight into Kaliyo. Just because the writer used "he" in a couple of places doesn't mean they're trying to tell us Kaliyo is straight, just that the writer was thinking of her story as it currently stands right now in the present.

But no one is setting out to deliberately slight us here. I would hope that everyone would know better than that given the track record of all parties concerned.

Quote:
I am trying not to direct my unhappiness at the Community Team. I think they are doing what they can. I think the Devs are doing what they can. Unfortunately, that amounts to permitting a second thread with a more specific focus but which also is not able to be answered and a half-confirmation of a rumor that we'll be in luck come Makeb. Since March, that's it. What manner of mood do they suppose that will contribute to? What has been done to ameliorate that?
Goodness, I don't even know where to start. The CMs read this thread, they've said it a few times now. Bile and vitriol in this thread gets read by them, even if it's largely not directed at them... But it is directed at the company they work for, which has got to be wearing (or outright demoralizing), especially if they feel even the slightest bit of loyalty to Bioware: Austin.

Quote:
If I could directly address those who make the calls as to what may be discussed, I would. But we aren't allowed to see that far into BWA, so all we have are the Comm Team who, I can only hope, have documented and escalated our disaffection over this policy to those able to address it. But they cannot do that unless those very reasonable concerns are explicity and strongly voiced.

We can only speak from our point of view. If that tends to see clouds rather than silver linings, perhaps it is because we have been given little reason to be optimistic about anything.
It's fine if you strongly word your opinions, so long as you remain polite and respectful. But don't put words or gestures into the dev and writing teams mouths (and hands) - let them speak (or not) for themselves. The whole Kaliyo thing is being blown out of proportion by a few posters in this thread, and frankly that's not fair to anyone at Bioware.

Quote: Originally Posted by Rabenschwinge View Post
I remember the D&D 3 rulebook was at times confusing because they alternated "he" and "she" from one longer paragraph of chapter to the next. It felt like they kept talking about completely different persons. In some places that made sense - they had their defined set of example characters and if they were talking about circumstances that applied only to a certain class, they used the gender of the particular example character they had for that class, even without directly referring to the character.... erm.... themselves.
I actually loved the way they did it in DnD, and I was especially fond of the iconic characters. I hope they bring that idea back for DnD Next.
Zandilar, an Australian, IN SPAAAAAAAACCCCEEEEE!!
Too many characters, most of them Chiss.

Palar's Avatar


Palar
10.02.2012 , 02:49 AM | #2024
It'd be pretty much impossible to see malevolent intentions in provided information, being that they've yet to provide anything. (Mr. Hood's comment doesn't count, as he apparently retracted it with deletion.)

Uluain's Avatar


Uluain
10.02.2012 , 02:50 AM | #2025
I have been wanting nothing more for nine months for them to speak for themselves. And, in the context of this issue, in this thread they have fallen short of the mark of what is acceptable from any company in addressing reasonable customer concerns. I am sorry the Comm Team are the ones who have to follow the circus parade with a shovel. I really am. And elsewhere, where I feel they have done well, I have been at pains to say so.

I thanked the Comm Team and Dev Team both for the companion blog. It's great to see story getting some promotion. It really is. I thanked them in threads and venues where that was germane.

But in the context of this thread, it was a huge disappointment that what could have been a golden opportunity to begin to speak about aspects of companion stories which they know we are anxious to hear more about has been passed up, seemingly without a backward glance. Yes, he was writing about the game as it stands right now. But the game as it stands right now is dismayingly heterosexist. And I think we have every right to find that objectionable.

When I feel dismayed at the situation, I think I ought to be able to say so. I think it is important that I do. I waver on that, though. I have, when able to glimpse something positive, tried to express that and encourage others to appreciate it as well. But it is so very little to go on after so long. I'm glad we are permitted to discuss Gabe Amatangelo's Makeb rumor in General Discussion. That is a step in the right direction, as far as it goes. But if it is simply one more thread where SGR questions are met only with thunderous silence, then enthusiasm wanes.

Similarly with the Gabe A. mention itself, and the bizarrely oblique, plausibly deniable confirmation of it. I can make a shrewd guess why it was handled that way, and appreciate that it was addressed at all. But I am livid that, in this day and age, it is being handled that way. No sweet tidbit comes our way without a bitter garnish of wormwood. It makes it hard to appreciate.

Being told this thread is read is nice, as is hearing that concerns are escalated. But when the net result of that is in no way different from where we would be had this thread never been created at all, then where does that get us? Sure, BioWare and EA have had a good track record for inclusiveness in other games previously. But I am playing this one. As is. And, as is, it fails to reach the standards which one expects of an EA or BioWare title.

I'd like a bit more to go on than assurances that this thread is read and gossip indicating that maybe SGRs are coming with Makeb, which may or may not be on the schedule to be released this calendar year. And if a lack of response leaves us with nothing to do but speculate, and contributes to a pessimistic appraisal of the situation, then yes - we will tend to speculate in a negative manner.

I am sorry that the Hidden Masters have put their front people in this terrible position. I extend the benefit of the doubt, say "seems to" and "I imagine" wherever I can. I try to keep thing on topic. More than that? No can do.

Tatile's Avatar


Tatile
10.02.2012 , 03:50 AM | #2026
Quote: Originally Posted by Kioma View Post
I like the idea of SGRAs. I think they would be good to have in game.

How about we talk about that before we self-destruct?
Good point.

Kioma's Avatar


Kioma
10.02.2012 , 04:39 AM | #2027
I like the idea of SGRAs. I think they would be good to have in game.

How about we talk about that before we self-destruct?
::Please Stand By, Signature Assessment Probe Commencing Analysis::

sockrocker's Avatar


sockrocker
10.02.2012 , 05:22 AM | #2028
Quote: Originally Posted by Kioma View Post
I like the idea of SGRAs. I think they would be good to have in game.

How about we talk about that before we self-destruct?
I agree.
While it is very disappointing that they have yet to be introduced although they were allegedly intended before release, and there is still no further information on if/when something like this might be implemented. I think the best thing anyone can do is simply show how much overwhelming support there is same-gender romance options in SWTOR.

Not to mention how much publicity an inclusion like this would generate for the game.
"I haven't felt this alive since Tatooine; the first time!"

Kioma's Avatar


Kioma
10.02.2012 , 05:26 AM | #2029
Quote: Originally Posted by Tatile View Post
Good point.
Thanks.

Personally I'm looking forward to a broad range of character types. I know people seem worried they'll overdo stereotypes or misrepresent (intentionally or no), but I don't think that's a concern.

Honestly, look at the broad range of character types already in the game. Heck, even the quest NPCs all seem to have their own personality. That guy on Coruscant who wants you to fetch computer chips on behalf of his senator boss? Man, I really don't like him. Oilier than a Hutt. That's a sign of good writing (if, that is, the character is meant to be disliked). The writers on the team are good. And considering the vehement backlash over DA2's Serendipity (which, to me, wasn't overly warranted) I think they'll be awfully cautious.

I think the writing team is probably (or already has) discussed at great length how much of a 'big deal' same sex relationships should be to the characters in the game. I mean there's always the 'But I've never felt this way about a man/woman/human/cyborg/droid/Jawa before!' route but that's the product, to me, of a culture that actively discourages thoughts about same sex relationships and only addresses them (positively or negatively) when the base assumption of heterosexuality is proven wrong.

In the Star Wars universe I can see three primary cultural types (in terms of SGRs) - the ones that discourage it, the ones that consider it to be entirely commonplace, and the ones that really don't care one way or the other. And who's to say which should be which? The Empire is speciesist, yes. But do they particularly care about same sex relationships? Considering their eugenics mindset is based around the avoidance of watering down the bloodlines - which same sex relationships can't do - I don't really know that they'd care.

"You're dating a Zabrak??"
"It's cool, we're both boys."
"Oh, well. At least you can't have babies."

Medical advances or no, I can see the Empire refusing to assist people of different species to have young (whether they're same-sex or opposite-sex) and definitely I think they'd look down on ANY inter-species romantic relationship, but I think the focus would be on the bloodlines and speciesist aspects, not 'omg teh gai'.
::Please Stand By, Signature Assessment Probe Commencing Analysis::

Rabenschwinge's Avatar


Rabenschwinge
10.02.2012 , 05:31 AM | #2030
Someone mentioned the possibility that there might be romances as unlockable content. While I don't think anyone would seriously consider to introduce same gender romances in general that way, I must say I am not completely averse to the idea as is.

Some characters, which are very special and because of their nature wouldn't usually consider a romance with a mere mortal might be only accessible to characters of the third generation of level 50s; otherwise they are helpful, friendly and distant. Of course we do get into an area where it shifts from Star Wars to high medievil fantasy. Angels, fairy queens, creatures of the Force, things like that, not sure whether that would really fit and if so whether there were a lot people who would actually like it enough that they may consider it a motivation to work for. The kind of things you come across in Mask of the Betrayer.

Anyway for such a creature wouldn't necessarily prefer either gender, because it's so far out of any natural sexuality and society, that there is no reason to assume that it might dislike the idea of mating with a mortal of one gender more than that of another.