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Class changes and balance in Game Update 1.3

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Class changes and balance in Game Update 1.3
First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

toyfanatic's Avatar

06.08.2012 , 03:15 AM | #301
I would love to talk with some one who thought up these changes for shadow and tell them why i think its not good idea.

TSDx's Avatar

06.08.2012 , 04:21 AM | #302
Now that I have a night to sleep on this, I'm more annoyed than I was yesterday.

What the heck is the reasoning behind lowering Immortal Juggernaut DPS? We already have the worst DPS out of the 3 tanks. The change to Single Saber Mastery is not needed. The massive nerf to Crushing Blow damage was not needed. I don't consider 25% to be a "slight reduction." Has anyone EVER complained about Juggernaut DPS in ANY spec? I've certainly never seen it. Its like you're daring me to try and go for a hybrid template since the extra rage generation in Soresu is going to make going all the way up the Immortal tree unnecessary.

My tanking partner for OPs is an assassin. Guess we won't be seeing many of those anymore either.

You're addressing issues that don't need to changed while STILL ignoring the ridiculous Marauder/Sentinel defensive cooldowns that grant them better survivability than a tank.

KindBudhArsh's Avatar

06.08.2012 , 04:25 AM | #303
OP still OP i see...

TheRedNalroni's Avatar

06.08.2012 , 04:32 AM | #304
Quote: Originally Posted by Bedrayne View Post

OK someone failed basic math. If I tank one mob or 3 mobs my proportional increase in damage is the same. If it was 35% it would be 35% more damage. Each mob will do the same % increase. So 3 mobs hitting me at for 1000 = 3000 damage. If I took 35% more damage each mob would hit me for 1350 for a total of 4150. 4150 is 35% more than 3000, what do you know, the damage increase is the same %.
Now lets delve deeper into your misconception. The armor rating reduction is not 35% and the armor damage reduction modifier is most certainly not 35%, its .9% more damage taken. Yes 0.9% more damage.
Base Armor + Combat Tech + Stasis (20% talent)
Now 100+150+20=270
1.3 100+115=20=235
(270-235)/250=13% armor rating nerf
For my marginally geared (columi mainly) alt shadow tank
Current armor = 6746 AR = 38.45% DR
Current - 13% = 5869 AR ~= 5982 (an armor level i can reach) = 37.65% DR
Assume a bit more call it, what 37.55% DR to over value another 120 AR loss
So 38.45-37.55=0.9% mitigation loss... Oh no... less than 1% less mitigation... on a COLUMI geared tank, aka I am not far into diminishing returns.
Once again for the people who missed it the first time having Combat Stance move from +150% armor (aka 250% total armor) to 115% armor will cost me .9% mitigation.
I should have read that one sentance before posting. I failed English, not Maths. The reason I stated 35% armor reduction as opposed to specific number of damage reduction is everyone is going to be affected differently.

I have 7006 Armour currently With Dark Charge which gives me +43.33% Damage reduction on live.
on Test I have 6097 which Gives +38.09 Damage Reduction
43.33 - 38.09 = 5.24
Thats 5.24% not 0.9%
Thats a 5.24% extra damage from each mob attacking me.
i.e.: 3 Mobs x 5.24% more damage taken in a multi mob tanking situation than i do. The 5.24% Nerf is applied on every attacker. currently. Understand?

MY maths or is it Biowares tooltips?

First off Im ignoring Itemisation Beyond Armour. Anyone and Everyone with any clue replaces and customises their armour for optimisation and can therefore have identical items beyond base armouring. Therefore I see it as Irrelevant.

Lets Look at Rakata:
Heavy Armour = 4735 From Items +60% (Ion Gas Cylinder/Soresu Form) = 7576
Light Armour = 2508 From Items +170% (Current Dark Charge +Eye of the Storm) = 6771
post nerf:
Light Armour = 2508 From Items +135% (Current Dark Charge +Eye of the Storm) = 5893

Juggernauts add ontop of this damage reduction (already higher than Assassins Light armour pre nerf:
Soresu adds an Additional 6% damage Mitigation on top of their armour. As a raw stat and not under affects of diminished returns this in itself can be considered a very high boost from armour. It is in fact the equivalent of over 1800 more Armour rating. (ignoring Invincible 40% damage reduction for 10 seconds every 2 minutes and Sonic Barrier as an undetermined damage aborption; +20% damage reduction from 4pce bonus)

Powertechs add ontop 5% damage mitigation from ion gas cylinder an additional 2% damage reduction from Ion Screen, +2% from flame burst, +2% from 4cpe Set bonus, (effectively 2100 more armour rating) With an additional 16% More armour rating 7576+16% = 8788 Armour which works out to a close 3-4% increase in damage reduction, making them in armour alone the biggest damage mitigators from Armour alone. (Ignoring Oil slick 20% Accuracy debuff that counteracts 20% Crit chance against them)

Last but not least Assassins with the inclusion if wither no longer breaking CC post 1.3 we gain a 5% damage reduction bonus, +2% from 4pce armour bonus.

So to summarise:
Juggernauts -7576 Armour rating +6% Damage Mitigation
Powertechs - 8788 Armour rating +11% Damage Mitigation
Assassins - 5893 Armour rating +7% Damage Mitigation

Difference being from 7006 to 6097 is 5.24% damage mitigation (approx 100 difference for 5% At this Level of dininished returns means that the difference between 5893 to 7567 is going to be about 8% or more, or to 8788 11% or more

Quote: Originally Posted by Bedrayne View Post
Um What?
Shadow - Def 27.27% Armor 6746 DR 42.45 S/A 62.66/50.85 Columi
Guardian Def 26.11% Armor 7494 DR 46.96 S/A 47.20/29.51 Columi/Rakata
Trooper- Def 19.41% Armor 8649 DR 52.95 S/A 50.31/38.21 Rakata/BH
All #s assume self buffs (20% SR for shadow and 8% SA for trooper) were up at max
I have literally NO idea where you pulled your ideas from.

Well even from your own example A shadow 800 armour less than Guardian has 4% difference, what were you smoking when you came out with 0.9% from a 900 loss??!

Defence - Avoidance of taking damage all together
Juggernauts Guard Stance+Blade barrier = 12% Defence Bonus (+smash 5% accuracy Debuff)
Powertechs Oil slick = ?% as its a 20% accuracy debuff and any boss with over100% accuracy counteracts Defence, this debuff varies from mob to mob and boss to boss and could mean as much as a straight 20% Defence bonus or as little as 0. Infact in most cases its going to be anywhere inbetween 5-10% on boss fights. Someone with greater knowledge might be able to help me with this one.
Assassin Lightening reflexes and premonition = 6% Defence bonus (ignoring deflection +50% defence for 12 seconds every 2 minutes; Discharge 5% Accuracy Debuff)

Im not taking into account buffs. in an Operation or just Alt levelling everyone can have the same buffs. If your a dedicated Tank you will have gone out of the way for all of them for even flashpoints. Therefore theyre irelevant in the grand scheme.

Clearer for you?

Ok Finally Shielding and Absorbtion
Juggernauts - Shield Specialisation = +4% ontop of itemisation
Powertechs - Shield Vents/Empowered tech = +8% ontop of itemisation / +2% Absorbtion (Heat Screen)
Assassins - Dark Ward + 2pce set bonus = +20% with 10 charges (greatly diminishes with multiple mobs)
Shielding/Absorbtion does not influence Criticals. Only Armour damage reduction affects Critical hits. Which is why Assassins are easier to heal through greater shield chance but become difficult to heal when critical hits are made.

These adjustments are based down to Our Self healing ability. Heal over times do not protect Assassins from Critical hits. A large portion of Self healing is over healing. When tanking it is important to keep the tank at 100% health or as close to all of the time. A single crit on an Assassin as Their damage mitigation from criticals is higher than the other tanks Significantly so (damage mitigation from armour difference between Assassins and there armoured counter parts is at 175% as Most bosses are calculated with +75 Surge).

You can say all you want about other utlities:
Force shroud is a very powerful utility for 5 seconds with a cooldown of 45 seconds (with disjunction and lightening recovery skills). This is also very situational. You cant discount the advantages that other tanks clearly stated above.
Assassins Tanking stance is the only one that reduces their own DPS by 5%.

Suxx's Avatar

06.08.2012 , 07:04 AM | #305
I understand that my lone opinion most probably will not be heard by Bioware, but anyway can't resist to express it here.

I think that rebalancing BW is doing is performed completely wrong (though the idea is not bad of course). Many players while considering which class/role to play seriously investigate all the pros and cons of the candidate classes, consider different skill tree builds, all advantages and drawbacks, as they will invest plenty of time into that character. They want to enjoy it, not curse the developers for spoiling the game experience. So cutting down some classes while adding some "arguable" benefits to them leads to many negative emotion among players, while everyone will agree the main aim of the game is to generate positive emotional feedback.

For instance, with 1.2 patch many Sith Sourcerers and Mercenaries did respec from healer builds to dps and even abandoned their characters in disappointment, on which they have spent many hours (i definitely saw many examples myself).

In 1.3 it seems like hitting blow reached Sith Assassin tanks. The serious armor reduction (which was always around 1k less than of all the other tanks) will definitely move them from main tank role to offtank class, which is not what many (including myself) were planning to have at the end.

Threat generation increase is quite good, but it is of no use with survivability cut down to dust. I think that if BW will not review their attitude toward player satisfaction and move some workforce from unsuccessful rebalancings to creation of more challenging encounter for example, they may loose another large portion of active subscribers as people eventually will get tired of this unpleasant "surprises".

Best Regards,

TimVickey's Avatar

06.08.2012 , 07:11 AM | #306
Quote: Originally Posted by Suxx View Post
In 1.3 it seems like hitting blow reached Sith Assassin tanks. The serious armor reduction (which was always around 1k less than of all the other tanks) will definitely move them from main tank role to offtank class, which is not what many (including myself) were planning to have at the end.

Threat generation increase is quite good, but it is of no use with survivability cut down to dust. I think that if BW will not review their attitude toward player satisfaction and move some workforce from unsuccessful rebalancings to creation of more challenging encounter for example, they may loose another large portion of active subscribers as people eventually will get tired of this unpleasant "surprises".

Best Regards,
This ignores BioWare's stated purpose of "nerfing" Sith Assassin tanks -- they self-heal. No other tanking class does this.

Testing shows that the self-healing generated by Shadow/Assassin tanks is too powerful after the armor adjustment they receive via Combat Technique/Dark Charge. This armor adjustment should have brought Shadow/Assassin tanks to lower passive survivability levels than the heavy armor tanks, with the self-healing they provide making up for the difference. However, this armor adjustment was making them passively just as good as the heavy armor tanks, with the self-healing taking them a bit beyond our survivability targets. Rather than hit armor or self-healing too hard, we’ve opted to adjust both by a much smaller amount.


psi_overtake's Avatar

06.08.2012 , 07:25 AM | #307
Quote: Originally Posted by TheRedNalroni View Post
-lots of math-
Was a pleasure reading this
PsiSniper Sniper & PsiOvertake Sorcerer (Updated July 5, 2012)
Ascend / Consumed / Art of War
The Brony Legacy
Quote: Originally Posted by CourtneyWoods View Post
Let's show them how Imperial Intelligence handles things! Pa-Chow!

Suxx's Avatar

06.08.2012 , 07:26 AM | #308
Thank you for pointing to this mostly masterpiece of crap. I have read it do not agree with it as maybe someone smart enough has already noticed. I strongly doubt that the person making decision ever played one of these classes. Everything these is extremely stupid!
And any subscriber as soon as he/she is paying his money has right to express disagreement with anything BW does.

syntxerr's Avatar

06.08.2012 , 07:32 AM | #309
There are many disappointed players from the Sage/Sorc healing community staring at the patchnotes which remained completely empty for their AC.

Not even in terms of raw power or output but simply to bring back some of the interesting and meaningful choices that could be made before and to give us some fun and challenging force management mechanic. Both things that were hinted at and yet we see absolutely nothing. Not even a mention of our AC.

This is very disappointing, we are watching you.
Why PVP healing is borked since 1.2 you might ask?
Simple: Bioware intended to remove Trauma with the changes to Expertise but someone simply forgot to turn it off.

humanyt's Avatar

06.08.2012 , 07:45 AM | #310
I have seen some very interesting posts especially about tank assassins

I have an other post at #271

I wanted to add, last night I went and tanked nightmare pilgrim, we were 3 tanks, 1 juggernaut, 1 powertech and 1 assassin, and guess what, I was the one taking more damge then the others, I was the one who died first when we wiped. We did manage to kill him, but everytime there was a critical hit or cleave or gore if my cds were not up I would almost get one shot if it were not for healers.

I also went and tanked hardmode denova, and then again the bosses hit really hard, my selfhealing ability does not help me much there and any armor reduction would simply be fatal to assassins for end content tanking.

Before 1.2 tanking was a pain for flashpoints and operations until I got my stats balanced and had to work hard on my assassin, then at 1.2 assassins became a good tanking class that is par with other tanks.
I have a powertech tank and I notice a difference in survivability concerning major cleaves and critical hits from bosses, we're not talking about tanking your trash during dailys because anyone can do their dailys.

Now that people enjoy the assassin you want to kill us?
I'd say leave the assassin as is, from what I've read the tanking classes are just fine the way they are, they each have their strenght and weaknesses that complement each other.
Why make threat a 100%, so now tanking will be so easy that you do not need to generate threat?, dps will just unload with no regard, we are going towards a basic tank and spank system, boring, boring, boring, the game had somewhat of a challenge now you are dumbing it down, I have no problems with threat as long as I get a few seconds on the boss to pull wither and my chock before anyone touches him, and all the other tanks I've been with don't have threat tell me again why all these changes...who have you been talking too?
I've been in beta tests pre-launch, I even had early access to the game and have been playing since.
I think you have to work on dps and healing classes from what I've seen, sorcerers, mercenaries, marauders.

I hope you take into consideration how people are going to be displeased with these changes and how these changes will affect the number of subscription lost to 1.3, as a good business man how can you justify losing customers?