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Powertech PvP Tanking Philosophy: A Guide

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Vanguard / Powertech
Powertech PvP Tanking Philosophy: A Guide

sonofhutt's Avatar


sonofhutt
06.05.2012 , 01:03 PM | #11
I completely agree that the integrated cardio is pretty much worthless for the points. If it was a 3% buff for each point it may be worth consideration. I used it a few times when I first started tanking at 50(pve) but soon switched it out for more dmg/threat gen

Hatstandard's Avatar


Hatstandard
06.05.2012 , 01:36 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Agooz View Post
Lets see:

3% Health = roughly 600-800hp on a tank PT. (less on other specs)
That's it, the entire benefit is 600-800hp, unless are being topped off by a healer everytime you get hit, which will hardly every happen.

3% mitigation however is working for you the ENTIRE time. Anytime you heal up, no matter if it is 100health or 10,000health, any damage you take again is mitigated by 3%. So it is EXPONENTIALLY better than a mere 3% to health.

Something to think about, since you just accused someone of being thoughtless, would you raither have a 25% health bonus to your Bounty Hunter, or have Energy Shield (which is 25% mitigation) be permanent? lol

For a PT though, and for the purpose of this Guide, it is not about 3%health vs 3% mitigation. Those 3 points are better used to increase dps.
*eye roll*

That's extremely marginal. Let's say a player receives 6000 healing

20000*1.03+6000 - (20000+6000)/.97 ~= 200

a player is about 1% better off with 3% mitigation vs 3% more base health here. (a pvp medpack will heal 200 more to the integrated cardio player making the integrated cardio player exactly equal btw)

While a player is better off with mitigation it's a very minor amount better off. I just thought you should know that as a swtor player you look ridiculous and stupid thinking mitigation is great and integrated cardio isn't for pvp.

Aqualous's Avatar


Aqualous
06.05.2012 , 01:48 PM | #13
I agree on all most every issue.

The reason I present two specs is to describe the difference between the standard tank spec (which I am currently using) and creating a max durability spec. To quote myself:
"This build does not weigh the comparative options between the usefulness of different skills but rather stringently sticks to The Rules"
I felt the need to say "Integrated Cardio Package (Soldier's Endurance) 3/3 - MUST HAVE" to refer to the philosophy of a tank, that is attempting to survive as long as possible.
Mitigation is usually better than stacking HP under the current system. I have personal anecdotes of surviving fights with less than 800hp, however, the overall value of surviving with that little health remaining is marginal.
I appreciate your thoughtful responses and if the community feels like I should remove those points and put them somewhere else, even though it is in the theorycrafting (philosophy) tanking section, I will gladly do it.

I had written this guide a while ago and did not want to hold off on posting it for much longer. Guessing when 1.3 will come out is beyond me, so I thought I would post the guide and edit the information when the changes to 1.3 come out. Hopefully keeping this up to date will be relatively easy.

In my original copy I had a whole section entitled "The State of the Game" in which I described my server's meta game and how we PvP in Warzones. Within that section I described how we are not the best tanks in the game, in my opinion, but that we have a unique skill set that can add utility to a fight. I removed that section for space as well as the fact that I did not want to be an apologist. Ending an entire guide with "and we aren't the best so you are better off not going tank" seemed wrong and is counter to what I believe. Because we aren't the best doesn't mean we are bad. If you choose to tank as a way to enjoy the game, this guide will hopefully provide ways in which you can succeed. I certainly am not encouraging everyone to go tank while simultaneously not encouraging everyone to go DPS.

Thank you all for the discussion thus far.

Sookster's Avatar


Sookster
06.05.2012 , 01:50 PM | #14
For pvp, the shield (and absorb) doesn't do very much, a shield won't stop critical hits and most attacks are either tech/force and criticals- only a poorly geared sniper and immortal juggernaut will be hitting your shield, everyone else will basically rip through the shield.

Between a full 31pt and a hybrid such as the Iron Fist, I go a little further with Iron Fist however I like staying full 31pt shieldtech, heat blast doesn't do much in pvp and nor does the absorption buff. Switching between tank and dps gear, I get more mileage out of dps gear and still viable enough to taunt and protect my teammate, averaging 350K damage, 200K protection, and very often the most medals in a match (between 13-15).

Also, I agree that the 3 points into endurance is a waste, I pick up the 8% rocket punch damage increase.
Now that GoergZoeller is gone, buff operative.
SWTOR going F2P, now playing SWGemu.

Agooz's Avatar


Agooz
06.05.2012 , 02:07 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Hatstandard View Post
*eye roll*

That's extremely marginal. Let's say a player receives 6000 healing

20000*1.03+6000 - (20000+6000)/.97 ~= 200

a player is about 1% better off with 3% mitigation vs 3% more base health here. (a pvp medpack will heal 200 more to the integrated cardio player making the integrated cardio player exactly equal btw)

While a player is better off with mitigation it's a very minor amount better off. I just thought you should know that as a swtor player you look ridiculous and stupid thinking mitigation is great and integrated cardio isn't for pvp.
Very convenient way to prove a point. First of all you are assuming that you are being topped off to your entire Health pool, which almost never happens in PvP. Second maybe people think you are an extremely low priority player in a WZ to only receive 6000heals. I easily receive 50k heals and as much as 200k+ heals, so 3% mitigation would be 2000-6500hp. In PvE a tank will be healed for alot more than that in a 5-6min fight.

Insulting and calling people names, doesnt make your point anymore valid. It only shows how childish you are. And for the last time, we were discussing taking out the 3 points in Cardio, which would OBVIOUSLY go to dps or utility talents. No ONE was contemplating 3% mitigation vs 3% health. A tank takes all the mitigation he can get, but dumping 3 talent points for 600hp might sound amazing to you, but not to the rest of us.

Agooz's Avatar


Agooz
06.05.2012 , 02:19 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Aqualous View Post

In my original copy I had a whole section entitled "The State of the Game" in which I described my server's meta game and how we PvP in Warzones. Within that section I described how we are not the best tanks in the game, in my opinion, but that we have a unique skill set that can add utility to a fight. I removed that section for space as well as the fact that I did not want to be an apologist. Ending an entire guide with "and we aren't the best so you are better off not going tank" seemed wrong and is counter to what I believe. Because we aren't the best doesn't mean we are bad. If you choose to tank as a way to enjoy the game, this guide will hopefully provide ways in which you can succeed. I certainly am not encouraging everyone to go tank while simultaneously not encouraging everyone to go DPS.

Thank you all for the discussion thus far.
Again, thank you for posting the guide. I am sure it will be helpful for many fresh PTs wanting to Tank in PvP. But maybe it would have been a good idea to include that "The State of the Game" section with regards to a PT tank. It would definitely add more to the conversation, and if the moderator would make this a sticky, then there is a good chance someone in BW would read it with the "slim" chance of actually considering some of the its arguments. It's probably is a good time too for that discussion since they did mention tweaking tank classes for 1.3

Noollig's Avatar


Noollig
06.05.2012 , 04:08 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Sookster View Post
For pvp, the shield (and absorb) doesn't do very much, a shield won't stop critical hits and most attacks are either tech/force and criticals- only a poorly geared sniper and immortal juggernaut will be hitting your shield, everyone else will basically rip through the shield.
Stacking shield and absorb doesn't work like it does in PvE, but it does work in PvP.

Luckily, most of the shielding and absorb you want comes from the ST tree, so you only need a few mods from some supercommando to get the most out of your shield with only a minor loss in surge/crit.

With IGC, a shield generator, and just a few mods from some supercommando gear and you can get ~38% shield while maintaining ~30% crit and ~74% surge. If you have WH relic of the shrouded crusader, you can push shield up close to 50% and really surprise some people. Pop your energy shield at the same time for even better results. Higher shield rating means you'll get those rocket punch refreshes more often too. If you are running a tank spec, you aren't going for max dps anyway, reducing the damage you take from 25% of the incoming attacks is still something you want to do.

I wouldn't recommend wearing a full set of tank gear, but to say only someone poorly geared is going to hit your shield is hardly accurate.

Aqualous's Avatar


Aqualous
06.05.2012 , 05:00 PM | #18
There is no doubt that the shield and absorb is a weak mechanic. All my augment slots contain defense augments because I would rather push my enemies accuracy below 100% when possible. However this debate centers around playing to our strengths or shoring up our weaknesses. When compared to other tanks we have the lowest initial defense but the consistently highest shield rating. I believe this is why we suffer, due to the damage mitigation mechanics of SW:TOR. Because we can't shield everything doesn't make it useless. Should we even be able to shield everything? Could you imagine shielding stuns? Wow I would love that. Shield is definitely weak, no argument there.
"heat blast doesn't do much in pvp" can I inquire what you mean by that?

Agooz, I will put the "State of the Game" section in the lower post, partly because I want to keep the guide focused for new tanks and to not let it divulge into speculation about the entire game. Any additions you would like to add would be appreciated. (The same goes for everyone of course)

We have numerous abilities that proc when we shield which isn't surprising since our class is built around having a higher shield chance than any other. Unfortunately as previously stated this makes us the weaker tank class.

I'm obviously biased towards tanking, but just recently I pushed a fellow Powertech guildie to full Pyro and he noticed a huge increase in damage, because it fit his playstyle.

Agooz's Avatar


Agooz
06.05.2012 , 10:46 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Aqualous View Post
State of the Game

Powertechs and Vanguards are not the best tanks in the game, in my opinion, however we do offer some unique utility that can make us invaluable in a group....
They are not the best tank in PvP, but certainly beastly in PvE. For starters, I would like to see this simple fix...Allow the use of "Shield Generator" in IGC to "SHIELD" any type of attack, not just Weapon and Range. Tech and Force should also be "shielded". Now lets move to the "Absorb", that would stay the same, only able to absorb Weapon and Range attacks. That way from a mitigation perspective, nothing has changed. But getting the chance to "shield" any attack would help the PT trigger Shield Vents and Flame Shield.

Aqualous's Avatar


Aqualous
06.06.2012 , 04:17 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Agooz View Post
For starters, I would like to see this simple fix...Allow the use of "Shield Generator" in IGC to "SHIELD" any type of attack, not just Weapon and Range. Tech and Force should also be "shielded". Now lets move to the "Absorb", that would stay the same, only able to absorb Weapon and Range attacks. That way from a mitigation perspective, nothing has changed. But getting the chance to "shield" any attack would help the PT trigger Shield Vents and Flame Shield.
I agree that would be one possible solution. The problem is that it would not really help our survivability, as far as I understand it. Having our procs would help us with delivering more rocket punches, but still doesn't make us tanky.

Another option that could be tested would be to not let crit push our shields off the hit table.

I would of course love to see our shield/absorb have the possibility of blocking all incoming attack types.