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Jedi Master/Fleet Admiral


Amien's Avatar


Amien
06.04.2012 , 12:03 PM | #61
Quote: Originally Posted by Maaruin View Post
That seems a little exaggerated, though. You would need lots of Dark Jedi to test all the padawans. What do you do in peace times? No, I think facing a Dark Jedi/Sith can replace the normal trails, but it can never be considered a normal trail.
They just need to experience the dark side. That doesn't always involve fighting a dark jedi/sith. Luke first encountered the Dark side and failed in the Cave on Dagobah. Starkiller encountered a jedi trial every time he visited the jedi temple in FU1.
Quote: Originally Posted by battlebug View Post
can you make sword in box light sword so sword come out when opened? then if sword is back after sword, use light saber on box, and saber will be boxed after sword is out.
New Thread:http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=297

TheLoneSage's Avatar


TheLoneSage
06.04.2012 , 12:08 PM | #62
Quote: Originally Posted by Girdeux View Post
Your pulling numbers out your *ss. They have never alluded to an actual time. All that was said in the old swtor forums that an act CAN be "months".
This was taken from last year, some time after E3. It still applies today. And act doesn't take "Months" considering ACT one for most classes, has major story advanced that would normally take years by themselves in SW Lore.

You think that over those course of "Months" a player can go from Padawan to Jedi Master on the Jedi Council and War Council to the Republic? No.

You believe that a Padawan, after a few "Months" of adventure can go and kill the voice of the Emperor? No.

It's also eluded many times on Tython about the "time" of training you've spent there. For example, on the Force-Sensitive Flesh Raider quest, when you speak to the Jedi Master he believes that a Flesh Raider would be nearly impossible to train. And you can respond to that with "I was trained eventually, wasn't I?" to which he responds "That's true, I've heard stories." Clearly you couldn't have made stories or memorable events on Tython on a few days. You've been on Tython for a good year or two now. You're not just the next Demi-God that waltzes through the Jedi Training.

Quote: Originally Posted by Ranadiel_Marius View Post
O_o Do you have a cite to that? I have never seen those time estimates before and that is a fairly significant insight if there is an official statement on the length of tiem of the class stories.

Edit: Wait thinking on it those timelines don't make sense since the Imperial Agent hit DK before the JK finishes Taris so unless the war for Corellia takes 2 years or the JK takes 2 years to finish Taris that timeline is impossible.
The numbers aren't the exact numbers given from the interview. In the interview, DE was talking about how each ACT can take around one or two years, depending on which act it is and what class you are. What I meant with the IA/JK Comparison is that the Agent's storyline progresses faster than the JK's. Nobody has been able to decipher which class goes first exactly or which options are cannon just yet.

Example: The Jedi spends a year or two on Tython. The Imperial Agent only spends months to a year on Hutta.


Quote: Originally Posted by Darth_Halford View Post
People seem to be somehow stuck on this idea that the only thing a soldier needs to train for is combat. Training for Officer Candidacy School (since that's what we're talking about, rather than enlisted) takes closer to nine months, and requires having top-notch education.
Graduation from the Naval Academy requires 4 years of intense curriculum.

I will take a guess though that Germany doesn't do that for all types of doctorates. Your degree has to help the operational success of the Navy as a whole.
This is back to what I was saying earlier, or at least what I was trying to say. Most Jedi don't have that knowledge.


If the Jedi Code doesn't forbid engaging in war and military conflicts, I see no reason why they don't join the military in a permanent status.

So, aside from the reptition that being force sensitive means being better at everything forever, it also reinforces the idea that Jedi should always be part of the military if they're so much better.
You're still not disproving the fact that a Jedi can learn all of this... And the Jedi and Republic hold and Ancient Law that binds them militarily together. Here's the Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sr6kS...feature=relmfu

The Chancellor, the leader of the Republic, brought the Law back into effect, giving Jedi Military control and Ranking. So yes, the Jedi are official part of the Military later into SWTOR. So a Jedi Fleet Master, is completely accurate. Considering he's very skilled in the art of Naval Warfare and probably extends a powerful Battle Meditation .
Who's my favorite Villain from the game?
Myself of course.

Path-x's Avatar


Path-x
06.04.2012 , 12:41 PM | #63
Quote: Originally Posted by Maaruin View Post
Btw. as far as I know Tarkin, Vader and the Emperor were kind of a triumvirate. Tarkin had far more power than Ozzle or Piett.
Nah, Emperor and Vader were above Tarkin. Vader was the leader of all imperial military while Tarkin was more or less the highest ranking officer in that military. Although it is obvious that they had mutual respect.

Well Tarkin obviously had more power than Ozzel and Piett but I wasn't making any kind of comparison between them. I was talking about their position/role in relation to Vader. They were all military commanders while Vader was their supervisor.
Jedi: You won the day, Sith. So, kill me if you must.
Warrior: I must.

Dan_Loto's Avatar


Dan_Loto
06.04.2012 , 01:15 PM | #64
Quote: Originally Posted by Maaruin View Post
Well, in Real World militaries and probably also in the Republic military officers also start without that much of experience. They have visited the academy for 4-5 years, but haven't been on the battlefield.

Since I wasn't in the military, I will quote the outhor of the site Tips On Writing Military Science Fiction:

"The most experienced people in any front line combat unit are frequently the Non-Commissioned Officers, the Corporals, Sergeants, Staff Sergeants and up. In some militaries it takes a Staff Sergeant eight to twelve years to get that rank. A Second Lieutenant frequently has less than a year's experience as a member of an active duty unit. Sometimes an officer may have spent four years in Reserve Officer Training Corps, or a similar academy (like West Point). When a new officer is assigned to a command he frequently lacks experience in the real world operations of that unit."
What I would prefer and how things actually are seem to be different.

Quote: Originally Posted by Maaruin View Post
No, I don't. Conscripting adult citizens for a limited time is very different to forcing children into a military career.

What do you think about conscripted helpers in case of natural desasters?
I donít like it, but greatly prefer it to the military kind. I kind of want to drop this because I don't know if we're allowed to talk about it according to
Quote:
Discussion of political, sexual, or religious topics is prohibited on the forums.
It's part of the game's lore so you'd think it would be allowed, but I don't want to find where they draw the line the hard way.

Quote: Originally Posted by Maaruin View Post
I would consider Tarkin as more gulty than the man who pushed the buttons, because it was his decision. And I would consider the engineers repairing the Death Star's hyperdrive less guilty.
Btw. there is a new book, called "Death Star" which also describes how the gunner dealt with what he did.
Iíll get to it eventually, Iím finishing up Darth Plageus now.

Quote: Originally Posted by Maaruin View Post
Where are this sleep-with-a-night-light Jedi? Aren't they busy with meditating, exploring alien cultures and diplomacy so they can't interfere with the soldiers.
They seems to usually be on the council. It seems like the Jedi have a Revan/Quigon faction and an establishment faction, with the Revan/Quigon having to answer to the establishment. Referring to the Revan that wanted to stop the Mandalorians.

Quote: Originally Posted by Maaruin View Post
I agree, that would be better than the test on Tython. (Maybe you could do it on coruscant, or get some soldiers to tython to train with.)
Like I said earlier, I hoped this stuff would have been explored more in game. (small general trooper spoiler)
Spoiler


It would make sense to have Jedi and soldiers train together rather than separately. I remember in one story where a Republic soldier was shocked (pun) that a Sith could shoot lightning from his fingers!

Trooper ending spoiler:
Spoiler

Sith Warrior act I:
Spoiler


Quote: Originally Posted by Maaruin View Post
Of course they are. That's the thing where "honor" goes against "rationality". But if both can be good commanders, most of the Jedi also can.
My honor just doesn't seem to be the Jedi's honor. My honor comes from stopping the genocidal Imperials from getting away to fight another day.
(Foundry flashpoint spoiler)
Spoiler
POT5: Republic: Villd 60 van, Pyu 55 com, Cyball 55 scoun, Rais'ins 55 gun, Brukis 55 sent, YukÔ 12 guard, Purrjury 18 sen, Elabos 55 shad, Ranies 55 sage. Empire: Reckorb 56 jug, Fect 55 mar, Accident 55 sor, Vival 55 sin, Zolba 55 pt, HaruhÔ 51 mer, Fundark 24 op, Muttonns 22 sni, Satoshinakamoto 55 op, Premacy 33 jug, Modules 14 pt.

Maaruin's Avatar


Maaruin
06.04.2012 , 06:05 PM | #65
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth_Halford View Post
People seem to be somehow stuck on this idea that the only thing a soldier needs to train for is combat. Training for Officer Candidacy School (since that's what we're talking about, rather than enlisted) takes closer to nine months, and requires having top-notch education.
Graduation from the Naval Academy requires 4 years of intense curriculum. Admission requires being recommended by either the President or someone in Congress.
Jedi normally do have top-notch education. They probably also learn a lot of things you learn at the military academy. Maybe you could list the most important, so I can take a closer look.

Quote:
I will take a guess though that Germany doesn't do that for all types of doctorates. Your degree has to help the operational success of the Navy as a whole.
This is back to what I was saying earlier, or at least what I was trying to say. Most Jedi don't have that knowledge.
Of course, so probably only those Jedi with fitting specialization are send into battle. And even fewer will get a real command. (Technically, he might be at the same level as the commanding officer (or above, if he is a master), but the average Jedi will know that it's the best for him to follow the officers plans.)

When you chose your advanced class for the Consular, you learn that there are Jedi tacticians. I repeat: Jedi tactician is a non-playable advanced class for Jedi Consulars. It might even be normal for them to join republic military and get a military rank. Oteg could be one of them.

The playable ACs also qualify for officer ranks, but not necessarily commanding positions.

Jedi Sage (healer) - same as a doctor. (Doctors get officer ranks, don't they?) Since he can heal troops during battle, he would be at the rear of the unit, supporting them.

Jedi Shadow - specialized in stealth, he could lead covert operations and recon missions.

Jedi Guardian - defense expert. Of course best in the front line, but part of his training probably involves coordinating defenses. Imagine someone you could withstand enemy fire for minutes. A living tank.

Jedi Sentinal - could lead a strike team to hit the enemy hard. With his skills, a normal unit could probably do the same things Special Forces do normally.

Quote:
I have to agree with this. We (The United States) are the oddball in the world in that we have "The greatest military force the world has ever seen", while at the same time being all volunteer. Most countries still have conscripted military forces, including our closest competitors (China and Russia), and the past "greatest military" nations have historically done so with conscription. If it were deemed as slavery (forbidden by international law), the nations that use it would be persecuted and prosecuted by the UN.
Didn't you also have conscription during WWII? I thought it was like that. Or was it the Vietnam war? I'm not sure, but even the US seems to use conscription if soldiers are desperatly needed.


Quote:
You get a military rank as soon as you join the military. The only way you get true military experience is by joining, so no.
If the Jedi Code doesn't forbid engaging in war and military conflicts, I see no reason why they don't join the military in a permanent status.
The problem is: The Jedi are an organization on their own. Normal procedure that one Jedi is assigned to every battalion in war time, but after the war they return to their order. That's a way to gain military experience without being part of the military. Some Jedi might choose to join the military during this time. Or they get a honorary rank.

Quote:
The people who deal the most with politicians are at the top of the Chain of Command, not the bottom.
True.

Quote:
So, aside from the reptition that being force sensitive means being better at everything forever, it also reinforces the idea that Jedi should always be part of the military if they're so much better.
But not every Jedi should be forced into the military. It should be a specialization Jedi can choose (which it probably is). There might also be a conflict of loyalty. A Jedi has to obey his masters/the council. Always. So if the council says "No.", like they did in the Mandalorian Wars, the military couldn't deploy him.

Quote:
"Leadership qualifications" break down to one question: Are you able to achieve operational success while still maintaining Operational Risk Management? This is the same for Infantry or Airborne as it is for Intelligence or Engineering. This I think is the crux to my problem. Being a Jedi (or other Force Sensitive) does not automatically increase operational success or lower ORM.
Of course. But Force sensitivity helps with ORM and there are Jedi who are very good at this. Of course a Jedi scholar is not qualified for leading a military unit. And even if a master-rank might give him authority technically, he won't use it.
Jedi tacticians definitly don't lack these skills.

Quote: Originally Posted by Dan_Loto View Post
What I would prefer and how things actually are seem to be different.
Maybe, but the alternative would be taking experienced NCO's out of active duty to go to military academy for four years to get officers training.
An officer with theoretical knowledge and an NCO with experience working together has worked most of the time.

Quote:
I donít like it, but greatly prefer it to the military kind. I kind of want to drop this because I don't know if we're allowed to talk about it according to It's part of the game's lore so you'd think it would be allowed, but I don't want to find where they draw the line the hard way.
Well, it's kind of off topic. But as long as we remain civil and as long as it is only a small part of the real discussion I think it is okay. If not, a mod will inform us.

Edit1:

I might as well state the reason for my position. The state has the duty to protect it's people. But to do this you need money and men. This is why the state can raise taxes (it would be robbery if it wasn't the state). And if there are no volunteers, it also can conscript citizens. IF it is necessary. (In my country there have been cases were men were conscripted into the "volunteer" fire department, because there weren't enough volunteers.)

What the Republic did during the clone wars was the opposite of conscription. Instead of asking it's own citizens who owed their security and prosperity to it, they payed a species (not member of the republic) to create a slave army for them. In other words: The republic citizens could sit on their lazy a*ses during the first years of the clone wars because the republic payed for slaves instead of using conscripts.

Quote:
Iíll get to it eventually, Iím finishing up Darth Plageus now.
I haven't read it yet, just got the information from some spoilers.

Quote:
They seems to usually be on the council. It seems like the Jedi have a Revan/Quigon faction and an establishment faction, with the Revan/Quigon having to answer to the establishment. Referring to the Revan that wanted to stop the Mandalorians.
Since you played Knight, you know Master Jaric Kaedan. He sits on the council and is a very militaristic Jedi. JK Act I:
Spoiler


Also Satele Shan doesn't hesitate to destroy imperial dreadnaughts in times of peace to get an imperial defector. (Black Talon Flashpoint)

Quote:
Like I said earlier, I hoped this stuff would have been explored more in game. (small general trooper spoiler)
Spoiler


It would make sense to have Jedi and soldiers train together rather than separately. I remember in one story where a Republic soldier was shocked (pun) that a Sith could shoot lightning from his fingers!
I agree, that would have been nice.

Quote:
Trooper ending spoiler:
Spoiler

Sith Warrior act I:
Spoiler
You can trick a Jedi if you are skilled. (Do you know Atton from Kotor II and his techniques to shield his thoughts.) But you also can trick a trooper (Havoc Squad on Ord Mantell).

Quote:
My honor just doesn't seem to be the Jedi's honor. My honor comes from stopping the genocidal Imperials from getting away to fight another day.
(Foundry flashpoint spoiler)
Spoiler
If you define honor like this. I might call it a wise decision, but not honorable. Different values lead to different decisions in battles, and militaries will have to deal with this.


Edit2:

Quote: Originally Posted by Path-x View Post
Nah, Emperor and Vader were above Tarkin. Vader was the leader of all imperial military while Tarkin was more or less the highest ranking officer in that military. Although it is obvious that they had mutual respect.

Well Tarkin obviously had more power than Ozzel and Piett but I wasn't making any kind of comparison between them. I was talking about their position/role in relation to Vader. They were all military commanders while Vader was their supervisor.
I'm still not convinced. Tarkin was not only a military, but also a political figure. Wookiepedia even says "He was recognized as the definitive voice on policy and philosophy, second only to Palpatine." Vader above Tarkin is also not the impression you get from ANH. He was above every other officer on the Death Star, but not above Tarkin.

Vader wouldn't touch Tarkin without the Emperor's explicit permission. It's like that in every dictatorship: there is always a circle close to the dictator where ranks/positions don't matter anymore.

Quote: Originally Posted by TheLoneSage View Post
It's also eluded many times on Tython about the "time" of training you've spent there. For example, on the Force-Sensitive Flesh Raider quest, when you speak to the Jedi Master he believes that a Flesh Raider would be nearly impossible to train. And you can respond to that with "I was trained eventually, wasn't I?" to which he responds "That's true, I've heard stories." Clearly you couldn't have made stories or memorable events on Tython on a few days. You've been on Tython for a good year or two now. You're not just the next Demi-God that waltzes through the Jedi Training.
The Jedi Knight and Jedi Consular probably went through Jedi training before Tython (in some random Jedi enclave).

I heared the game spans around 2 years, which seems reasonable for most classes.
"I was one of many. We were servants of the dark sideÖ Sith Lords, we called ourselves. So proud. In the end we were not so proud. We hidÖ hid from those we had betrayed. We fellÖ and I knew it would be so."
-Ajunta Pall