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Grammar in Chat


Jewa_taken's Avatar


Jewa_taken
05.25.2012 , 03:57 AM | #101
I wonder if the OPs head would actually explode if he came to play on our EU servers?

Kirameki's Avatar


Kirameki
05.25.2012 , 03:58 AM | #102
If this would happen on an american server yes then it would be fair that elementary grammar is "required". On an european server however where english is not a main language for most people and not all had an english education it's a total different matter.
I see loads of people struggle with english on the european servers but at least they take an effort in writing it where loads of other players plain simple don't even bother. I prefer engrish (yes engrish, not a typo) over *insert random other language*.
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SelinaH's Avatar


SelinaH
05.25.2012 , 04:36 AM | #103
The OP makes a number of assumptions in constructing his argument, to wit:

1. Schools today still teach and enforce proper English. Anyone currently in school is therefore in the habit of using correct grammar and spelling, and must make a conscious effort to break the habit in order to talk 2 ohter peeps liek this lol.

Sadly, I've seen papers and assignments from current students that were shocking in their lack of some of the principles of basic English. Those students still passed with flying colors. It might have something to do with many of the teachers nowadays having a similar inability to spell or write well. One of my very good friends still has occasional trouble distinguishing between "its" and "it's." Why? Because his teacher taught him the rule incorrectly. Aside from that, he's an amazing writer, despite having no formal higher education.

The OP mentions "common practice" of good grammar as though it's something that's still common these days; I'm not so sure it is. Even in professional or academic environments, there's a large number of people who don't understand or utilize many of the simple rules I was taught in elementary school. I've found myself having to double-check my writing on more than one occasion, simply because I've seen contractions like "you're" spelled wrong more often recently than I've seen them spelled correctly.

2. People older than 30 did not grow up around computers, and therefore were never expected to learn how to type.

I was born in the early 70s (Git off mah lawn!) and have had a computer in the home since I was 10 years old. (I remember playing Ultima III with a friend when it first came out. Yes, that's a 3. I also remember Infocom games with fondness.) By the time I hit high school, all long papers and assignments were expected to be typed. If a student did not have a computer, she used a (gasp!) typewriter. By my college years, everyone was expected to have some degree of computer and keyboarding proficiency; this was also the era of MUDs. And I'm a decade (give or take a couple of years) over the OP's cutoff age.

3. At least some posters exhibiting poor grammar or spelling do so because English is not their native language.

At least in my experience, while ESL posters do make certain errors, they're rarely the same kind of errors that native speakers of English tend to make. Aside from these one or two minor slip-ups, they're often more careful to write well and clearly, because they're aware that they can't necessarily take people's understanding them for granted. While I understand the OP's point here (it's not reasonable to expect perfection from someone with limited fluency), I'd argue that it's not always accurate to lump the majority of non-native speakers of English into the category of people who do "not use proper grammar, punctuation, or capitalization at a basic level," especially when many of them surpass the thoroughly mediocre (if not downright horrendous) level of basic English literacy we see from many native speakers today.


In short, I think the original hypothesis has some flaws. I don't see a lot of distinction being made between the ability to use proper English and the willingness to do so. The OP seems to assume that most people in his target age bracket can write well if they try, but they just can't be bothered most of the time. I have to wonder for what proportion of the Internet community this actually holds true.
"Homogeneity breeds weakness: theoretical blind spots, stale paradigms, an echo-chamber mentality, and cults of personality. A diverse dramatis personae is a powerful tonic against these ailments." -V.S. Ramachandran

Sauska's Avatar


Sauska
05.25.2012 , 04:53 AM | #104
Quote: Originally Posted by Kirameki View Post
I prefer engrish (yes engrish, not a typo) over *insert random other language*.
I actually prefer "Nengels"
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llesna's Avatar


llesna
05.25.2012 , 05:03 AM | #105
Some sensible ideas put forward there.

As someone who realises just how important spelling and grammar are in an entirely-written medium, I cannot help but judge people by the effort (or lack thereof) that they put into typing.

English is a pain of a language, but when you don't use it properly, it just shows you in a bad light, whether or not you care about it or think so. To expect people not to judge you for this or not to cringe at the common errors is like asking humans not to make first impressions based on spoken language or appearance.

Getting to know people better can push past first impressions, but most meetings in-game are fleeting or temporary, so it'd be best to leave people with a good impression of you.

Many players will never care about this, but don't be surprised if you get judged accordingly for the inability to express your ideas clearly in written form.

BitterDevil's Avatar


BitterDevil
05.25.2012 , 05:13 AM | #106
You know what i think is very funny? How would someone from England react to this post? The simple fact that seems to escape the OP is that HE DOESN'T SPEAK/WRITE PROPER ENGLISH!!! You are an American, you use US English that is a bastardized form of english and yet you make a big a** post profiling the men and women who can't/won't use "proper" english.

To paraphrase a proper english user : Methinks the OP doth protest too much!

dazednconfuzed's Avatar


dazednconfuzed
05.25.2012 , 05:16 AM | #107
Quote: Originally Posted by DbDBear View Post
I have put up with a lot of things on this forum but this is pushing it way to far.
You LEAVE MY GRAMMAR OUT OF THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! She does not even play SWTOR .... Hell.... She does not even have a Computer! She is a very nice Old Gal and bakes me tasty cookies and NONE of your damn business!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Haha!!! Excellent

OT: Personally, I understand where the OP is coming from. Sometimes you see something in chat and wonder if the person typing it speaks English, and have to spend ages working out what they said.

So far as my typing goes, if I am on the forums, I will usually try to put everything together using proper grammar, punctuation, capital letters, and so on. In game, more for speed than anything else, I tend not to capitalize, unless I am typing someone's name, and more often than not instead of hitting '.' at the end of a sentence, I hit 'Enter'. I still use correct grammar if using abbreviations though since it can get confusing for others if you don't, especially for non-native English speakers. For example 'We'll go and do X' means one thing, and 'Well go and do X' means something else - doubly confusing if you are a guild master and your guild are used to you asking them to do stuff.

Oh, and I'm 32, and have lived in England my entire life.

Quote: Originally Posted by BitterDevil View Post
You know what i think is very funny? How would someone from England react to this post? The simple fact that seems to escape the OP is that HE DOESN'T SPEAK/WRITE PROPER ENGLISH!!! You are an American, you use US English that is a bastardized form of english and yet you make a big a** post profiling the men and women who can't/won't use "proper" english.

To paraphrase a proper english user : Methinks the OP doth protest too much!
As someone from England, I am glad to see one of our Amercan cousins trying to better themselves by learning how to use their mother tongue correctly

And being fair, he does use proper English, it's just the American dialect of it. You get the same no matter where you go. There are words used in my local city, Newcastle, that would confuse the hell out of someone who lived in London, and vice versa. It's not a different language, just a different dialect.

Edit: Going back and reading some of these posts in the first few pages alone makes me wonder about the community as a whole. A guy comes along and puts together a thread to have an interesting discussion, and all you guys do is come along and flame him. Why? If you have nothing constructive to add to the discussion, don't bother. It really is that simple.
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BitterDevil's Avatar


BitterDevil
05.25.2012 , 05:34 AM | #108
Quote: Originally Posted by dazednconfuzed View Post
Haha!!! Excellent

As someone from England, I am glad to see one of our Amercan cousins trying to better themselves by learning how to use their mother tongue correctly

And being fair, he does use proper English, it's just the American dialect of it. You get the same no matter where you go. There are words used in my local city, Newcastle, that would confuse the hell out of someone who lived in London, and vice versa. It's not a different language, just a different dialect.
I understand completely. But the fact of the matter is that a language, especially the english language, is evolving (or you as an english man could argue, evolving by devolving) at the exact pace as the information transfer. English has become, for all intents and purposes, the international language. So in order to become accessible to all, it is dumbed down to a common denominator. The idea transmitted is more important than the form in which it is being transmitted, as long as it is intelligible. Of course, i am referring strictly to texting and internet related issues.

Disclaimer: On official documents, mass media etc, the use of proper english and the proper grammar should be mandatory.

Sauska's Avatar


Sauska
05.25.2012 , 05:38 AM | #109
Quote: Originally Posted by BitterDevil View Post
I understand completely. But the fact of the matter is that a language, especially the english language, is evolving (or you as an english man could argue, evolving by devolving) at the exact pace as the information transfer. English has become, for all intents and purposes, the international language. So in order to become accessible to all, it is dumbed down to a common denominator. The idea transmitted is more important than the form in which it is being transmitted, as long as it is intelligible. Of course, i am referring strictly to texting and internet related issues.

Disclaimer: On official documents, mass media etc, the use of proper english and the proper grammar should be mandatory.
Agreed!

And if everyone would write proper Engish and proper grammar all the time, we'd have to miss out on precious gems like the famous Sword in a box:

"can you make sword in box light sword so sword come out when opened? then if sword is back after sword, use light saber on box, and saber will be boxed after sword is out. " (courtesy of battlebug).
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Y-Yorle's Avatar


Y-Yorle
05.25.2012 , 05:44 AM | #110
I don't remember where or when I read this anymore, but I believe I read the average age of the SWTOR player is something like 28 or 32 years old! xD

Also, not sure if it's been said before as I didn't feel like reading through 11 pages of replies, but I think the type of server one plays on determines a lot as well. For example, I play on Trask Ulgo which is a European RP server. Generally the 'leet speak' is less present in all chats on there. I was happily surprised I had to spend less time decrypting chat on SWTOR then I had in my last MMO Aion! xD

The *ahum* problem I have when typing, is that I am terribly lazy. I can't really type blindfolded, which means I am looking at my keyboard half the time, and I also don't check if I've made any typo's before hitting the enter key. Combine this with an inborn ability to effortlessly (but mostly sub-consciously) fuse two possible ways of saying something into one sentence and needless to say, I've had my fair share of funny typo's. A good example was when I introduced myself to my gf's family for the first time as "Hi, I am her girlfriend! ... *facepalms* dammit... >.<". You can imagine what a good first impression I made that day. Luckily for me her parents like to crack jokes so they could laugh about it a lot back then. Sadly they will probably laugh about it for the rest of my life though. The sentences I "fused" btw were "Hi, I am her boyfriend" and "Hi, she's my girlfriend". :P

p.s. In case you (the OP) are interested, I am from the Netherlands.

p.p.s And no, I don't mind leet speak or lack of proper grammar and punctuation. Often I can have some laughs together with the people involved about it. Although...It may become a tad annoying when they use excessive amounts of abbreviation while in high-pressure situations like a warzone and I have to spend a lot of time figuring out what the heck someone said. :P
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