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@David Hunt: rethink 50k augment costs in 1.3

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Crew Skills
@David Hunt: rethink 50k augment costs in 1.3
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Raeln's Avatar


Raeln
05.21.2012 , 12:03 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Chalpy View Post
@the post about severely undercutting

Or you could look at it as you're undercutting to the point where you're spending your time doing things for close to free for other players. A custom built assault cannon will take on the average 40 bronzium, 30 plastoid, 20 conductive flux, and 30 plastifiber. At an abundant mission you can get 8-9 of each scavenging material and I think 4-6 or so with investigation for each mission so you're looking at 5 missions for the bronzium, 4 for the plastoid, and lets' say 6 for the plastifiber. With that many missions you're looking at 15 to 30 minutes where you're sending out companions every couple minutes to do something after the initial four minutes peace when you start; we'll say in the time the other seller spends waiting he buys the conductive flux so I won't even include that time as he or she can't do very much else but craft anyway. For myself for the time part alone I wouldn't even consider making the product for less than 50,000 credits profit. The materials can be bought instead but if they're bought the only way there is any return at all is if the materials are selling for less than 139.5 credits per piece on the average (15,000 - trade network fees of 6%- the costs for the conductive flux). On top of that if you can sell the materials for as low as 250 credits each that's an additional 25,000 for the bronzium, plastoid, and plastifiber; if these materials sell for as low as 150 credits each that's still 15,000 credits which is equal to your selling price just for the materials and not including the time investment. Then you also have the six percent trade network fees. Personally, I'd rather make the elegant modified assault cannon as the materials are a lot more but the time investment is a lot less so I can do other things besides craft while I'm making them.

If your satisfaction in-game comes from doing things for other random players that's fine; I'd appreciate it just like I'd appreciate it if someone decided that instead of taking the credits for their dailies they'd rather hand them over to me instead. However, I wouldn't call the other seller an idiot if he or she believes that after crafting an item it'd be nice if a return was received that was at least equal to the money equal to what they could have earned by playing other aspects of the game besides crafting for other players. For myself, I'd just stop making them if somebody did that to me, sell something else including materials and all that means is that there's less supply on the market and less chances other players can buy something when they want to until prices go back up again.
Good point. The way materials are gathered through crew skills makes it difficult to pin an exact price tag on how much something cost. On top of that - how many copies had to be made to get the critted version that actually has market value?

When it's all said and done, the only way to know for sure how much was really invested into making the final piece almost requires spreadsheeting how many missions it took to get the materials or how much was paid to buy the materials.

75k for a crit-crafted weapon is not a bad price. I happily paid 75k x2 for my gunslinger's blasters. In all honesty, the armstech selling those blasters is probably barely breaking even with the system as it is right now.

I wouldn't even make aim/cunning augments and list them for less than 70k on the market. It's not worth my time. I'm constantly running slicing missions for tech parts and I'm lucky to get enough purple items back from those missions to make one augment after a night of playing (the missions are over an hour long). This places the opportunity cost for me, keeping 2 to 4 companions out for so long, very high. Sorry, but I'm not selling aim/cunning augments for 20k right now. I'd gauge my investment in the 4 purple augmenters at 10 to 15k alone to acquire them from missions. That's not accounting for the cost of the other materials and the ~45 minute construction time. Now I could pave a hyperspace lane with all the blue augmenters I have. Unfortunately, they are useless.

Keep in mind that the system would be more stable if the value of augmented equipment was not tied to a RNG crit. It will probably get better in 1.3 when crafters can just make one item, throw it on the table and augment it if it doesn't crit. This current implementation of crit-crafting is full of fail.

GnatB's Avatar


GnatB
05.21.2012 , 12:11 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by pokota View Post
Inflation? Might happen? Our servers must be radically different. Right now, on my server, grade 1 materials sell for almost as much as grade 6. Inflation has already happened. Why? Why is the economy so inflated? Because you can do daily quests, earn hundreds of thousands of credits, and at the same time earn commissions you can exchange for gear INSTEAD of buying it.
Quote: Originally Posted by SpatterJack View Post
I only started SWTOR about 2 months ago, and I could clearly see the effects of inflation, just by looking at the pricing of items on the GTN. When L10-16 crafting resources are selling for 200 to 300 credits EACH, it's obvious that the seller is targeting L50 characters with big wallets who want to skill-up their alts. And those resources get sold at that price, I know this from personal experience.

Which brand new player can afford a L11 armour piece with an augment slot, when they are often priced anywhere from 50K to 150K (server dependent) ? Those will be bought for alts only. So the GTN prices for crafted gear and resources are already set for characters who can "easily" earn 200-300K a day from their daily missions. It's inevitable, goods are priced according to what the market can bear, and the market in SWTOR can bear quite a lot, it seems.
It's unclear either of those is caused by inflation, but rather that due to the screwup that is augmented orange equipment in 1.2, lvl 10-19 items are cost-effective "BiS" for lvl 50+'s. As such there is massive demand (by people willing/able to pay), and thus prices go up. (which isn't to say I haven't taken advantage of it. I don't know if it's just my server or what, but there has been virtually no competition selling augmented orange equipment. (before the patch, I had assumed competition would be high enough to drive down prices to "near cost"... as it's so rediculously easy to get enough skill to compete) But my characters have all made millions selling the stuff.

However I do realize it effectively keeps "at level" characters out of the market.

LarryRow's Avatar


LarryRow
05.21.2012 , 12:20 PM | #23
What I don't see is Biochem (and maybe Cybertech) going away as essential skills. Now there is nothing you can get from, say, Synthweaving, that you can't simply purchase - 1 time! - with credits. At least presently the Rakata belt and bracers can crit with an extra slot and be BIS, and they are BOP so only available to that profession. (I haven't looked at this since 1.2 to compare to Campaign or Black hole since I haven't had much chance to obtain that gear).

The point is you'll still want Biochem for the stims/adrenals/medpack reusables and consumables (so you are not at the whim of the GTN) or Cybertech for analogous reasons for grenades. If you lack cash for something that another profession makes, do a quick round of dailies.

I know a lot of people on this forum like crafting and the gtn for its own sake, but I see it as a means to an end. How can I make my toon the most powerful? I think every crafting skill needs an exclusive, well-balanced end-game perk that will make all the skills equally attractive

grandmthethird's Avatar


grandmthethird
05.21.2012 , 12:22 PM | #24
@splatterjack

ok if you say so, just look at the plans for augments and level caps. this is quite obviously a move to stop low level mats from making endgame gear. also i don't know about your server but on my server its only low level mats that have shot up in price, this is not how inflation works, inflation increases the price of everything. before 1.2 on my server mandalorian iron sold for an average of 10k per unit, after 1.2 the average price is still 10k per unit. true inflation would affect mandalorian iron as much as it would desh.

although maybe your right, but there is one way we will get an answer on this, thats simply see what happens after 1.3 hits
"Hope has a vicious enemy called fate"

Raeln's Avatar


Raeln
05.21.2012 , 12:29 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by grandmthethird View Post
ok if you say so, just look at the plans for augments and level caps. this is quite obviously a move to stop low level mats from making endgame gear. also i don't know about your server but on my server its only low level mats that have shot up in price, this is not how inflation works, inflation increases the price of everything. before 1.2 on my server mandalorian iron sold for an average of 10k per unit, after 1.2 the average price is still 10k per unit. true inflation would affect mandalorian iron as much as it would desh.

although maybe your right, but there is one way we will get an answer on this, thats simply see what happens after 1.3 hits
Low level materials are more expensive because very few players sell them. Most players are running grade 5/6 crew missions - not grade 1/2. This leaves only very fresh alts to be running the low level crew missions and they are scrambling with just 1 or 2 companions to gather enough materials to skill out of it. Besides, in my experience - I've had the most trouble selling low level materials at even the default market price that the UI lists it at.

It may be the "300 credits" for that level 1 material might be what the tool is listing them at by default.

After that is said, gathering lower level armoring/mods/barrels and enhancements are extremely easy. Just use the planet commendations. Run a heroic or two (or buy from the legacy vendor) to get the moddables, always take the planet commendation awards and there will be almost no need to purchase any low leveling crafting items while leveling. Just buy them from the planetary commendation mod vendor. With fully upgraded mods, the character will always be a level or two overpowered for the planet.

grandmthethird's Avatar


grandmthethird
05.21.2012 , 12:44 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Raeln View Post
Low level materials are more expensive because very few players sell them. Most players are running grade 5/6 crew missions - not grade 1/2. This leaves only very fresh alts to be running the low level crew missions and they are scrambling with just 1 or 2 companions to gather enough materials to skill out of it. Besides, in my experience - I've had the most trouble selling low level materials at even the default market price that the UI lists it at.

It may be the "300 credits" for that level 1 material might be what the tool is listing them at by default.

After that is said, gathering lower level armoring/mods/barrels and enhancements are extremely easy. Just use the planet commendations. Run a heroic or two (or buy from the legacy vendor) to get the moddables, always take the planet commendation awards and there will be almost no need to purchase any low leveling crafting items while leveling. Just buy them from the planetary commendation mod vendor. With fully upgraded mods, the character will always be a level or two overpowered for the planet.
i know and i agree, however this all changed with the anomaly of 1.2 augments. ppl can use low grade mats to make the lowest level orange gear (i forget if its 15 or 17) crit craft it stick in endgame mods and boom cheapest possible crit crafted custom gear, and all you need is grade 1 mats.

this is the reason for the price hike to low level mats and low level custom crit crafted gear.

all i'm saying is that is not inflation
"Hope has a vicious enemy called fate"

GnatB's Avatar


GnatB
05.21.2012 , 12:49 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by LarryRow View Post
I know a lot of people on this forum like crafting and the gtn for its own sake, but I see it as a means to an end. How can I make my toon the most powerful? I think every crafting skill needs an exclusive, well-balanced end-game perk that will make all the skills equally attractive
Crafting skills SHOULD be for the profits, not for the power. The "means to the end" should be profits, not power. Which is why biochem/cyber are broken and need their perks removed. The last thing they should do is add "power perks" to the rest of the crewskills.

If you see it as a means to the end, end being more power, you should have no reason to participate. Another customer for those actually wanting to do what tradeskills are supposed to be for. Making stuff to sell.

LarryRow's Avatar


LarryRow
05.21.2012 , 01:32 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by GnatB View Post
Crafting skills SHOULD be for the profits, not for the power. The "means to the end" should be profits, not power. Which is why biochem/cyber are broken and need their perks removed. The last thing they should do is add "power perks" to the rest of the crewskills.

If you see it as a means to the end, end being more power, you should have no reason to participate. Another customer for those actually wanting to do what tradeskills are supposed to be for. Making stuff to sell.
Point taken. And it would be easier to remove two perks than add 6!

On my server it's frustrating for me as a synth to maintain a stock of boichem consumables because so many people have biochem reusables and don't bother making consumables. It's so much harder to find them on the GTN than the one-time purchases from all the other skills (except Cybertech grenades).

I guess the answer is to switch to Biochem, but that's a lame answer. The real issue is that only 2 skills make consumables, while the other skills make permanent goods. Perhaps all the skills need useful consumables?

Nezrik's Avatar


Nezrik
05.21.2012 , 01:46 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Augustine View Post
background:
I have played this game since release, while I am not entirely happy with many of the decisions to date, I do not have an axe to grind, and this isn't my first MMO rodeo. I have been playing MMO's since 1994 and have always been a dedicated crafter. s
Quote:
Finally, MMORPGs as defined today began with Meridian 59 in 1996, innovative both in its scope and in offering first-person 3D graphics, with The Realm Online appearing nearly simultaneously.[13] Ultima Online, released in 1997, is often credited with first popularizing the genre,[13] though more mainstream attention was garnered by 1999's EverQuest in the West[13] and 1996's Nexus: The Kingdom of the Winds in Asia.
source.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massive...e-playing_game

so. my question is what were you playing in 1994?

DavidHunt's Avatar


DavidHunt
05.21.2012 , 02:47 PM | #30 Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread. Next  
Thanks very much for the feedback.

A small confession - I started responding to the augment questions in the other thread a week before I actually finished the post. During that time, we were still discussing and testing augment costs. I can't say what they'll be when Game Update 1.3 goes live, but it will be something less than 50K.