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Power of the Dark Side


Slowpokeking's Avatar


Slowpokeking
05.17.2012 , 01:41 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Tuscad View Post
George Lucas stated that Anakin Skywalker had the potential to be the most powerful force user of all time had he not ended up becoming Vader and going into the suit. If this is the case he should have been able to beat Dooku without using the darkside, maybe not at the time he did it in episode 3 but he would have eventually, especially if the Force was with him.
He did, and Sidious was helping him. The novel explained it well.

Tuscad's Avatar


Tuscad
05.17.2012 , 01:45 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
He did, and Sidious was helping him. The novel explained it well.
I didn't read the novel (Wish I had, I heard it is excellent and explains things way better than the movie), how was Sidious helping? Was it the verbal encouragement he was giving Anakin or was he somehow discreetley using the dark side of the force to slow down and weaken Dooku?
Date Joined: March 2009 - Date unsubbed: 9/18/2012
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Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
05.17.2012 , 02:02 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth_Solrac View Post
Lewisgil wrote:


I agree. You shoulda shelved this epic fail of yours. I will probably enjoy this....


The fail is....so strong in this one. Dooku was a revered master duelist while still apart of the Jedi Order. He pwned his former Padawan (ANAKIN'S MASTER) TWICE. Simple, obvious (to everyone but you apparently) logic says that Tyrannus was more skilled in that area. Was also obvious from the expressions of sheer hate on Anakin's face that he was calling on the DS majorly. So yes, THAT is the reason he beat Tyrannus.


First time watching the prequels huh....



Form II allowed an initiate to defend himself against an opponent with minimal effort, while placing a heavy focus on avoiding disarmament.

Makashi was described as elegant and focused, and was based on balance and footwork to outmaneuver opponents. Fluidity and economy of motion were relied on, rather than strength, with Form II bladework heavily utilizing jabs and light cuts rather than hack and slash movements.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Form_II%3A_Makashi

Makashi IS A PRIMARILY DEFENSIVE FORM. You failing noob.


I believe I've already quite sufficiently addressed yours.


A helpful hint for ya for next time. When claiming to deal with my 'fail' (LOL) it helps NOT TO AGREE with me immediately.....

I did indeed enjoy that.

Try again?
If you read the article and on Dooku's page, you will see that Anakin's form is the best counter for Dooku's.

" However, despite Dooku's absolute mastery of Form II, he was still prone to one of the style's weaknesses; the lack of kinetic power. Perhaps the most notable demonstration of this was during Dooku's fateful duel with Anakin Skywalker; Dooku was simply unable to generate the necessary power to evenly match Skywalker's preferred form, Djem So. The sheer, raw power of Form V wore down Dooku's defenses, physically exhausting him and draining his reserves of Force power."

There is the flaw in Form 2.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

Slowpokeking's Avatar


Slowpokeking
05.17.2012 , 02:14 PM | #14
Dooku was able to defeat Anakin if it's a 1v1 fair fight.

Djem So' mobility was its weakness and that was defended by Obi Wan, after Obi Wan was knocked out, Dooku already spent too much energy and could not go against Anakin's fury, he used his Dun Moch and it worked, but then Sidious taught Anakin to control his fury. Then Dooku realized he was betrayed=game over.

Maaruin's Avatar


Maaruin
05.17.2012 , 03:29 PM | #15
Okay, I think the theory I will present now is not supported by any source, but it makes sense to me.

Maybe artificial anger, hatered etc. are not as powerful as real, natural agressive emotions.

Vader - Luke

Vader doesn't hate Luke and he has no reason to be angry. So he has to built up anger and hatered. It is possible, you can train yourself in producing an emotional state. I bet there is a psychological term for it, self suggestion maybe?
But your feelings won't get as strong as natural feelings.

Luke on the other hand has a reason to hate Vader and the Emperor. He really is angry. Especially after Vader says he wants to turn Leia.


Dooku - Anakin

Same story. Dooku has no reason for hating Anakin that much. He also is so confident in his abilities that he doesn't fear to loose and isn't that angry.


Palpatine

I think he isn't that much into anger. Cruelty/sadism is the emotion he uses. He enjoys causing suffering. And maybe he has developed a general hatred for the Jedi as organization.
Also Palpatine, trained as Sith for a very long time, might be more able to control his emotions. So the artificial anger and hatred he can produce might be stronger then Vader's, Dooku's and Maul's.
"I was one of many. We were servants of the dark side… Sith Lords, we called ourselves. So proud. In the end we were not so proud. We hid… hid from those we had betrayed. We fell… and I knew it would be so."
-Ajunta Pall

Lewisgil's Avatar


Lewisgil
05.19.2012 , 02:31 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth_Solrac View Post
Lewisgil wrote:


I agree. You shoulda shelved this epic fail of yours. I will probably enjoy this....


The fail is....so strong in this one. Dooku was a revered master duelist while still apart of the Jedi Order. He pwned his former Padawan (ANAKIN'S MASTER) TWICE. Simple, obvious (to everyone but you apparently) logic says that Tyrannus was more skilled in that area. Was also obvious from the expressions of sheer hate on Anakin's face that he was calling on the DS majorly. So yes, THAT is the reason he beat Tyrannus.


First time watching the prequels huh....



Form II allowed an initiate to defend himself against an opponent with minimal effort, while placing a heavy focus on avoiding disarmament.

Makashi was described as elegant and focused, and was based on balance and footwork to outmaneuver opponents. Fluidity and economy of motion were relied on, rather than strength, with Form II bladework heavily utilizing jabs and light cuts rather than hack and slash movements.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Form_II%3A_Makashi

Makashi IS A PRIMARILY DEFENSIVE FORM. You failing noob.


I believe I've already quite sufficiently addressed yours.


A helpful hint for ya for next time. When claiming to deal with my 'fail' (LOL) it helps NOT TO AGREE with me immediately.....

I did indeed enjoy that.

Try again?
Look, I can do this too.

Quote:
Form V, also known as the Way of the Krayt Dragon, was created by Form III: Soresu masters who desired a more offensive style, since the defensive nature of Form III often led to prolonged combat, which was dangerous for the practitioners. Form V evolved into an accepted style by combining the defensive maneuvers of Form III with the more aggressive philosophy and tactics of Form II: Makashi. Form V required a higher level of physical strength than the other lightsaber forms, due to its focus on complete domination of its practitioners' opponents.[1] It was considered the most physically demanding of all the forms.[10]
Quoted from the Wookieepedia page for Form V.

As you can see, I did my homework before even coming to the table, young Padawan.

By the time Episode III had come around, Anakin had grown in power significantly and had become one of the foremost masters in Form V. He was better than Dooku in every way, more powerful and using the perfect answer to Dooku's preferred fighting style.

Quote:
Unlike Soresu or Ataru, Djem So required the user not only to counterattack, but also to press the assault, combining Force-enhanced strength with powerful blade combinations to overpower and overwhelm an opponent's defenses. Djem So's sheer power, when combined with physical and Force-imbued strength, was capable of defeating a user of Makashi, a lightsaber form focused on dueling, finesse, and elegance, when employed by a skilled practitioner.[14]
Quote:
During his final match against Dooku aboard the Separatist flagship Invisible Hand, Skywalker deceived the Sith with a Shien opening stance and Ataru acrobatics, but during the duel he returned to his own preferred Djem So strokes. The Sith Lord was barely able to deflect the Jedi Knight's blows and was eventually scorched when his own blade was forced back onto his shoulder. Using Form V, Skywalker pushed Dooku back with powerful blows, bolstered by use of rage in the fight, until he eventually disarmed and killed the Sith.[14]
Also quoted from the same Wookieepedia page.

As for my claims concerning the Dark Side, I would be a fool to say you were wrong in claiming that the Dark Side draws upon its practitioners' emotions and grants them power. That IS how it works.

Quote:
Some believed the dark side to be a more generous than the light, as it provided power, strength, and determination. Many of the original Dark Jedi in the Great Schisms of the Jedi Order held this idea, and believed it foolish of the Jedi to restrict themselves to a lesser interpretation of the Force. Some fell to the dark side for the sake of knowledge, such as Anakin Skywalker in his fight to discover a way to save the life of his wife and children.[3][8]
But at the same time, the Dark Side also corrupts the body, even degenerating it.

Quote:
The dark side, much like a strong, addictive narcotic, affected not only the mind of the user but the appearance as well. As one immersed themselves deeper within the dark side of the Force, its malevolent power would take a toll on the body.
Quote:
In time, the corruption could go beyond mere cosmetic details and directly impair physical abilities. King Ommin of Onderon was a proficient Sith sorcerer for most of his life, and the dark side held him under its decaying influence until he eventually became incapable of movement and needed support from a cyborg exoskeleton in order to survive. The worst case of this transformation would be Darth Nihilus, who not only was completely consumed by the dark side mentally but also physically. He had become a living entity of the dark side of the Force and uncaring of all life.[29][9]
Quoted from the Wookieepedia page for The Dark Side of the Force.

You have a talent of quoting parts of what someone says and using it to your advantage. However, it is best to actually read for comprehension of the full statement. Just because part of what you said was correct, does not mean you didn't still fail to convey the correct message.

As stated previously, the Fail is strong in you, young Padawan.
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Lewisgil's Avatar


Lewisgil
05.19.2012 , 02:49 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Maaruin View Post
Okay, I think the theory I will present now is not supported by any source, but it makes sense to me.

Maybe artificial anger, hatered etc. are not as powerful as real, natural agressive emotions.

Vader - Luke

Vader doesn't hate Luke and he has no reason to be angry. So he has to built up anger and hatered. It is possible, you can train yourself in producing an emotional state. I bet there is a psychological term for it, self suggestion maybe?
But your feelings won't get as strong as natural feelings.

Luke on the other hand has a reason to hate Vader and the Emperor. He really is angry. Especially after Vader says he wants to turn Leia.


Dooku - Anakin

Same story. Dooku has no reason for hating Anakin that much. He also is so confident in his abilities that he doesn't fear to loose and isn't that angry.


Palpatine

I think he isn't that much into anger. Cruelty/sadism is the emotion he uses. He enjoys causing suffering. And maybe he has developed a general hatred for the Jedi as organization.
Also Palpatine, trained as Sith for a very long time, might be more able to control his emotions. So the artificial anger and hatred he can produce might be stronger then Vader's, Dooku's and Maul's.
Anger and Hate are not the only emotions that fuel the Dark Side. Also, it is possible to have a source of Anger or Rage that has nothing to do with your opponent. Using as an example, Malgus. He used the loss, even though self inflicted, of Eleena to fuel his rage. Vader. He had the loss of Padme to fuel his rage.

Vader vs Luke: Vader was starting to lose the conflict raging within himself. Anakin was beginning to resurface. That is why Vader lost to Luke.

Dooku vs Anakin: Dooku had every reason to hate Anakin. Dooku was fully aware that he was replaceable as Palpatine's Apprentice and he was also fully aware that Palpatine had his eyes set on Anakin for that specific reason.

Palpatine is another matter entirely. He no longer needed to rely upon emotions spurred on in the heat of battle. Plagueis spent all of Palpatine's apprentice years turning him into a creature of pure hatred. Palpatine just figured out how to temper that hatred and keep it under control.
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Malrus
05.19.2012 , 03:20 AM | #18
I don't really understand how all these fights work because on wookiepedia it says and I quote, Along with Yoda, Dooku was one of only two Jedi who were known to have bested Mace Windu at sparring. And than he goes and gets beaten by anakin, who in turn is somehow beaten by Kenobi who is definitely no match for Dooku. I think Dooku just might not have gotten enough sleep the night before, making him more tired and less focused when versing Anakin. Haha

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
05.19.2012 , 07:30 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Malrus View Post
I don't really understand how all these fights work because on wookiepedia it says and I quote, Along with Yoda, Dooku was one of only two Jedi who were known to have bested Mace Windu at sparring. And than he goes and gets beaten by anakin, who in turn is somehow beaten by Kenobi who is definitely no match for Dooku. I think Dooku just might not have gotten enough sleep the night before, making him more tired and less focused when versing Anakin. Haha
Thats how you knew Anakin was growing stronger, if he hadn't suffered any injures or stayed on the lightside with the jedi. He would have surpassed Yoda and Mace upon reaching his full potential, the fact that he beat Dooku only showed how powerful he got. The only reason Obi-Wan lasted as long as he did, and not get steamrolled into the ground was because he was THE master of Soresu.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

Lewisgil's Avatar


Lewisgil
05.19.2012 , 11:52 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
Thats how you knew Anakin was growing stronger, if he hadn't suffered any injures or stayed on the lightside with the jedi. He would have surpassed Yoda and Mace upon reaching his full potential, the fact that he beat Dooku only showed how powerful he got. The only reason Obi-Wan lasted as long as he did, and not get steamrolled into the ground was because he was THE master of Soresu.
Actually, being the "Master of Soresu" had very little to do with the win. Obi-Wan goaded him and Anakin fell for it, literally. He did exactly what Obi-Wan expected him to do and Obi-Wan capitalized. It came down to which one was able to keep their head in the game.
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