Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Why does every boss need an enrage timer?


Leovinus's Avatar


Leovinus
05.08.2012 , 07:07 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Codek View Post
It's not even just the 7 healers and 1 tank scenario that's a problem. It's the fact that anyone could trade in 1 extra healer alone that would make survival in the harder fights a joke. By trading 1 DPS for a healer you sacrifice killing the boss two minutes earlier for the ability to have everyone topped off on health at all times.... Wheres the challenge in that?
I was answering the strawman that people keep building up in these threads. I do notice that you didn't speak to my point about dps checks vs. hard enrages though (and it's relevant to your point here).

Wattser's Avatar


Wattser
05.08.2012 , 07:24 AM | #12
DPS check is a bogus excuse for an enrage timer. This fight was a DPS check with no enrage timer and used thought:
Rathgar:
Rathgar is a pure DPS fight plain and simple. 30 seconds into the fight and then one minute or so afterwards he will one shot your tank and every minute after. Rathgar will gain one level every time he kills someone. If he reaches level 99 he will one shot every single person he targets(starts at 94).

This means you need atleast two tanks in your raid and rezzing them quickly so they can get back on the mob to get the next one shot will be crucial. The tanks can be the ONLY people in your raid to die.

You need to kill Rathgar in under 4 minutes ideally with NO ONE but your tanks taking the deaths. This means your total raid dps needs to be around 300-500k dps to achieve this as he does have a decent amount of HP.

But there is more to this fight than just healing through the three Moderate AOE's. He will also spawn one add during the fight every 30 seconds or so. This add needs to die ASAP or it will absorb into the named and Rathgar will gain an level.

See, a creative solution to why you need dps. Also, I think the big problem that someone started is that players don't have a universal resource. Essentially all classes have unlimited resource. Ok, heat/force is the hardest to get back if you bottom out. But, you could just heal forever with no worry if there were no enrage timers. Universal resource + resource drains and minimal ways to get it back would make you need dps and less heals to kill the mob before that point, or maybe add utility that can restore that resource to all classes. It opens up a whole bunch of fight possibilities, imo.

Leovinus's Avatar


Leovinus
05.08.2012 , 07:28 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Wattser View Post
DPS check is a bogus excuse for an enrage timer. This fight was a DPS check with no enrage timer and used thought:
Rathgar:
Rathgar is a pure DPS fight plain and simple. 30 seconds into the fight and then one minute or so afterwards he will one shot your tank and every minute after. Rathgar will gain one level every time he kills someone. If he reaches level 99 he will one shot every single person he targets(starts at 94).

This means you need atleast two tanks in your raid and rezzing them quickly so they can get back on the mob to get the next one shot will be crucial. The tanks can be the ONLY people in your raid to die.

You need to kill Rathgar in under 4 minutes ideally with NO ONE but your tanks taking the deaths. This means your total raid dps needs to be around 300-500k dps to achieve this as he does have a decent amount of HP.

But there is more to this fight than just healing through the three Moderate AOE's. He will also spawn one add during the fight every 30 seconds or so. This add needs to die ASAP or it will absorb into the named and Rathgar will gain an level.

Holy crap, another EQ2 person. We're a rare breed around here, aren't we?

Wattser's Avatar


Wattser
05.08.2012 , 07:48 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Leovinus View Post
Holy crap, another EQ2 person. We're a rare breed around here, aren't we?
We are indeed. But, ya gotta admit one thing that game could do is make strategic, fun, and mostly creative endgame. And hard!

Codek's Avatar


Codek
05.08.2012 , 07:50 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Leovinus View Post
I was answering the strawman that people keep building up in these threads. I do notice that you didn't speak to my point about dps checks vs. hard enrages though (and it's relevant to your point here).
I fully agree with the concept that not all fights require an enrage, but I also believe that any fight that doesn't have an enrage can very well implement an enrage to push for better efficiency with the group coordination. It's one thing to have a fight where DPS can hit the boss and watch for some mechanic to ensure the raid won't wipe. It's a much stronger challenge if there is something present that says you must watch for this mechanic + ensure maximum up-time on damaging the boss.

There should always be a mechanic that will eventually say to the raid that they are not efficient enough at running the tasks required. Resource depletion, hard/soft enrage, add swarms, they all can be viewed as an enrage in some aspect. It's all in repsect to what level of challenge you want the fight to be held at.
~Codek

Crixaliss's Avatar


Crixaliss
05.08.2012 , 07:52 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Wattser View Post
DPS check is a bogus excuse for an enrage timer. This fight was a DPS check with no enrage timer and used thought:
Rathgar:
Rathgar is a pure DPS fight plain and simple. 30 seconds into the fight and then one minute or so afterwards he will one shot your tank and every minute after. Rathgar will gain one level every time he kills someone. If he reaches level 99 he will one shot every single person he targets(starts at 94).
Funny, that sounds remarkably similar to an enrage...

So its not an enrage after exactly xx:xx time, but its still the equivalent of an enrage, its still something that prevents you dragging the fight out by bringing extra healers instead of dps. Whats the difference?

Freeborne's Avatar


Freeborne
05.08.2012 , 07:59 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth-Malice View Post
Because adding complex fight mechanics, multiphase fights, player choices effecting fights would be too hard. So the easy way out was taken.
Yes, because you can *TOTALLY* stand there and tank 'n' spank every operations boss.

"Complex" is difficult word. Complexity depends on your capacity to understand, and the groups ability to coordinate. And quite frankly, whether you "cheat" (for lack of a better word) and learn strategies/watch videos before actually doing the fight.
The Ebon Hawk: 50 Commando, Shep'ard. 50 Guardian, Asha'man
Want a global LFG channel? Type "/cjoin LFG" on your server and get others to do the same!

Freeborne's Avatar


Freeborne
05.08.2012 , 08:01 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Dyslexicon View Post
I hope this is just their beginning efforts at MMO fight design and will move on to better fights soon, hopefully in 1.3. I was glad for Kephess HM to have a non-tradition enrage as well with the purple circles filling the fight area, like Karraga as well.
Karagga and Kephess both have tradtional enrage times as well as non-traditional ones.
The Ebon Hawk: 50 Commando, Shep'ard. 50 Guardian, Asha'man
Want a global LFG channel? Type "/cjoin LFG" on your server and get others to do the same!

Freeborne's Avatar


Freeborne
05.08.2012 , 08:05 AM | #19
Personally, I *LOVE* enrage timers.

As an operations leader, if everyone is doing their job, and no one is dying, and we cannot beat the enraged timer, it tells me either:

1. Our DPS don't meet their gear check.

or (less likely)

2. One or more of our DPS doesn't know what they are doing.

It's the difference between us spending 3 hours wiping on the same boss, or calling it after 5 attempts because know we simply can't meet the numbers.
The Ebon Hawk: 50 Commando, Shep'ard. 50 Guardian, Asha'man
Want a global LFG channel? Type "/cjoin LFG" on your server and get others to do the same!

Wattser's Avatar


Wattser
05.08.2012 , 08:07 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Crixaliss View Post
Funny, that sounds remarkably similar to an enrage...

So its not an enrage after exactly xx:xx time, but its still the equivalent of an enrage, its still something that prevents you dragging the fight out by bringing extra healers instead of dps. Whats the difference?
If you have 5 deaths total at ANYTIME in the fight its over. 5 people die to the first couple AoEs..done. Is it similar yes. The point is its a check, and a creative one. They could have said, kill this mob in 4:30 or you die, like BW and enrage timers work. Instead they did kill this mob before 5 deaths or 4:30 which equals 5 deaths. Not to mention the addition of having to rez and rebuff tanks, while keeping the raid alive, tank swapping, and still meeting the dps mark. Here we have keep people alive and max dps, with minimal strat.(mostly just stand in the right spot strat)