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Make Recruit Gear a Requirement to Queue

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Make Recruit Gear a Requirement to Queue

SneakyErvin's Avatar


SneakyErvin
05.10.2012 , 10:57 AM | #151
Quote: Originally Posted by L-RANDLE View Post
Still dont get it? Trolling? No... Obervations and simple math...yes. Ask yourself why BW buffed expertise if it really was on par with PvE gear? Are your seriously suggesting wearing recuit gear is better than wearing Rakata? I'll say it again expertise ONLY increases bonus damage/healing. What goes into your bonus damage? Ta-da..... MAIN STAT/POW/FORCE/TECH.

Do you want 16% increase on 600 bonus damage or 700 bonus damage? That does not even account for contributions of main stat to crit rating. As I said before, mitigation is even more muted, and healing is a joke. I also would guess you don't have any PvE gear to even compare it, so... I am using real stats to compare this you are just talking out of ur azz.... With the buff given in 1.2 it is on par with PvE stuff tier for tier.
Not how it works. As I said missinformed.

Its about top end damage. Not your bonus damage, its a bonus to your damage when its all added together.

Say you deal 5000 damage in PvE gear and the opponent in PvP gear deals 4000 damage.

You have 0 expertise, he has 17% worth of damage increase and 14% DR.

5000 x 86% = 4300
4000 x 117% = 4680

So even if you manage to deal much higher damage in PvE gear, here in my example its 20% higher before adding in expertise (lowest possible expertise really) , you still deal less vs someone in just recruit gear.

Then the gap gets even larger between BM and no expertise (no matter what PvE gear you wear). The current recruit gear is on par with champion gear, statwise its in between centurion and champion gear, but in expertise its higher than champion with about 2% units. And even pre 1.2 centurion geared players used to wreck rakata geared players in PvP. Now expertise makes an even larger difference, so I dont see how rakata suddenly became better than it was vs centurion gear in PvP pre 1.2. Or do you think that blue automatically = bad?

Current recruit rating is higher than any full modded level 50 entry gear. Same with its weapon, much higher damage than a modded weapon with level 50 epic mods.

Level 50 daily armoring/barrel/hilt = 126 rating.
Recruit gear = 128 rating.

Also as your last statement imples. Feel free to go up against a BM geared player in Rakata thinking they are "on par" for PvP purposes.
Ahahahahah!!

L-RANDLE's Avatar


L-RANDLE
05.10.2012 , 11:28 AM | #152
Quote: Originally Posted by SneakyErvin View Post
Not how it works. As I said missinformed.

Its about top end damage. Not your bonus damage, its a bonus to your damage when its all added together.

Say you deal 5000 damage in PvE gear and the opponent in PvP gear deals 4000 damage.

You have 0 expertise, he has 17% worth of damage increase and 14% DR.

5000 x 86% = 4300
4000 x 117% = 4680
380HP on a crit attack????? Makes a huge difference..... ONCE AGAIN... NUMBERS OUT OF UR AZZ!!! AND THIS IS A BEST CASE SCENARIO. Exactly how much crit and end did you give up to get those numbers?


Quote: Originally Posted by NDiggy View Post
I think you're missing something about how important expertise is now. I have wrecked people in rakata in nothing but recruit gear. Its like beating a tied up goat. BW has even said that the recruit set is better for pvp than any pve gear.
No.. You are missing it. Georg is the Lead on this game, but I HIGHLY doubt he has a clear understanding of how the mathematics impact this game. I saw what he said... I laughed at it.Yeah, maybe there is some great magical formula that works in the background that gives expertise an advantage, but coming from a player that has almost EVERY tier of PvP & PvE equipment, expertise NOW makes it on par with PvE.

You don't understand exponential decay. The "BUFF" was slightly changing a multiplier to the log function and adding EXP to the mod and enh slots on BM and higher/adding more EXP to Cent gear(called recruit now), BUT EXPONENTIAL DECAY IS STILL THERE POST 1.2. The more you stack the less it benefits (i.e. In 1.2, 450EXP= 10%, but 900EXP= 18% (instead of 20%; for example))

Here are the charts and equations and are damn close to universally accepted by the community.
http://www.jedilace.com/2012/02/02/e...-of-champions/
You need to understand damage is governed by:
1. BW Controlled Base Damage.
2. Player Controlled Bonus Damage (EXPERTISE ONLY AFFECTS THIS).
More questions:
Q: Since the EXP difference between Recruit and BM is small, why is it such a noticeable difference when you are in a WZ?
A: Better main/sec stats (I.E. in the GRAND scheme of things main/sec stats DO matter in PvP).

Q: Does -6MAIN = +69EXP(1.71%)
A: Questionable at best... and this is a conservative number.

Q: What is the full set trade off from Recruit gear to PvE L49/50 epics?
A:
http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/characte...a-5fb24469272d

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/characte...1-fdaccb8effa2

Here is a side by side to make it easier…
http://s1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh590/ldogg1579/
Notice….18.2% added to a 519 Damage Bonus= 614HP(less than 100HP difference), but I have a 1620HP advantage. You are negating 15% of my damage of 490.7…. Again, less than a 100HP difference. Please notice my 12%(!) advantage in surge. On a crit attack, I just outpaced your vaunted mitigation. AND this comparison assumes I don’t use equal tiered relics on the PvE toon(Champ/Columi are really on the same tier). I have looked at the equations over, and over, and over again even IF expertise affected tool tip ratings (which I have never been able to prove mathematically), we still are talking about drops in the bucket on a tier to tier basis. Overall the change in expertise was to boost a VERY deflated PvP stat to begin with. I screamed to the high heavens that expertise need to be buff because of the above reasons and people said I was crazy. Then BW buffed it. So……… the math I used, in conjunction with my in game observations (on self healing in open world PvP!), and BW actions in 1.2 has shown me that I was right:

If a Rakata player is losing to you in recruit gear, then they blow and you are SUPA LEET... Plain and simple. Do you have Rakata pieces? I STILL would guess the answer in no....... Conversely, I have 6 Rakata pieces, all the BM pieces, 3WH, and a shiz ton of columi/champ/cent stuff. Hell, I even bought a freaking RECRUIT implant last night just to give you REAL numbers on the trade off with my crit crafted implant (all on my previous post). Tried it all in PVP; pre and post 1.2. I sit at ~700EXP. I do just fine and laugh at overpowered marauders in the recruit gear(13k) while I am spiking them down in my "weak" PvE gear and underpowered class(at 18K HP). I can lead you to water, but I can't make you drink...
PvP Gear Viability? Read this first.
Tired of being broke? Stop being Felica and read this.
I'm not trying to be Rambo..... I'm trying to be Ray Tango

Xsorus's Avatar


Xsorus
05.10.2012 , 11:38 AM | #153
Quote: Originally Posted by L-RANDLE View Post
380HP on a crit attack????? Makes a huge difference..... ONCE AGAIN... NUMBERS OUT OF UR AZZ!!! AND THIS IS A BEST CASE SCENARIO. Exactly how much crit and end did you give up to get those numbers?




No.. You are missing it. Georg is the Lead on this game, but I HIGHLY doubt he has a clear understanding of how the mathematics impact this game. I saw what he said... I laughed at it.Yeah, maybe there is some great magical formula that works in the background that gives expertise an advantage, but coming from a player that has almost EVERY tier of PvP & PvE equipment, expertise NOW makes it on par with PvE.

You don't understand exponential decay. The "BUFF" was slightly changing a multiplier to the log function and adding EXP to the mod and enh slots on BM and higher/adding more EXP to Cent gear(called recruit now), BUT EXPONENTIAL DECAY IS STILL THERE POST 1.2. The more you stack the less it benefits (i.e. In 1.2, 450EXP= 10%, but 900EXP= 18% (instead of 20%; for example))

Here are the charts and equations and are damn close to universally accepted by the community.
http://www.jedilace.com/2012/02/02/e...-of-champions/
You need to understand damage is governed by:
1. BW Controlled Base Damage.
2. Player Controlled Bonus Damage (EXPERTISE ONLY AFFECTS THIS).
More questions:
Q: Since the EXP difference between Recruit and BM is small, why is it such a noticeable difference when you are in a WZ?
A: Better main/sec stats (I.E. in the GRAND scheme of things main/sec stats DO matter in PvP).

Q: Does -6MAIN = +69EXP(1.71%)
A: Questionable at best... and this is a conservative number.

Q: What is the full set trade off from Recruit gear to PvE L49/50 epics?
A:
http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/characte...a-5fb24469272d

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/characte...1-fdaccb8effa2

Here is a side by side to make it easier…
http://s1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh590/ldogg1579/
Notice….18.2% added to a 519 Damage Bonus= 614HP(less than 100HP difference), but I have a 1620HP advantage. You are negating 15% of my damage of 490.7…. Again, less than a 100HP difference. Please notice my 12%(!) advantage in surge. On a crit attack, I just outpaced your vaunted mitigation. AND this comparison assumes I don’t use equal tiered relics on the PvE toon(Champ/Columi are really on the same tier). I have looked at the equations over, and over, and over again even IF expertise affected tool tip ratings (which I have never been able to prove mathematically), we still are talking about drops in the bucket on a tier to tier basis. Overall the change in expertise was to boost a VERY deflated PvP stat to begin with. I screamed to the high heavens that expertise need to be buff because of the above reasons and people said I was crazy. Then BW buffed it. So……… the math I used, in conjunction with my in game observations (on self healing in open world PvP!), and BW actions in 1.2 has shown me that I was right:

If a Rakata player is losing to you in recruit gear, then they blow and you are SUPA LEET... Plain and simple. Do you have Rakata pieces? I STILL would guess the answer in no....... Conversely, I have 6 Rakata pieces, all the BM pieces, 3WH, and a shiz ton of columi/champ/cent stuff. Hell, I even bought a freaking RECRUIT implant last night just to give you REAL numbers on the trade off with my crit crafted implant (all on my previous post). Tried it all in PVP; pre and post 1.2. I sit at ~700EXP. I do just fine and laugh at overpowered marauders in the recruit gear(13k) while I am spiking them down in my "weak" PvE gear and underpowered class(at 18K HP). I can lead you to water, but I can't make you drink...
You're struggling to compare yourself to someone in Recruit gear..

RECRUIT GEAR

If you only fight people in recruit gear, I want to play on your server...However using Rakata at any point in combat is bloody moronic, because the higher the PvP gears, the more it outpaces rakata.

Someone in BM or higher gear is going to hit you harder then someone in Recruit.. that is the simple fact of it.

mcgrace's Avatar


mcgrace
05.10.2012 , 11:46 AM | #154
Would you insist the coach let you play your next football, soccer, baseball, etc ... game if you weren't wearing your cletes? "But coach, I couldn't afford my cletes. I should still be able to play!!"

Nope. It hurts the team, and you.

When I hit 50 on my BH. I tried getting into a HM Kaon group. The leader inspected me and apologized that he would not let me in the group since my gear was underpar and they would not be able to finish with me in the group. He suggested I do my dailies and run HM BT, BP, etc to gear up.

I got it. Understood. I wouldn't want me in there either if I were to be the cause of failure.

The same should apply to PVP. If you are going to be a detriment to your team. Why join? It's common sense.

To all of those screaming "You were 50 once....let them play." Yeah, you're right. I was 50 once and I geared up so I could actually compete and contribute towards winning.

Frisemort's Avatar


Frisemort
05.10.2012 , 11:51 AM | #155
Just make it free so people have no excuse for queueing with 0 expertise and 12k hp.

Astarica's Avatar


Astarica
05.10.2012 , 11:56 AM | #156
Recruit Gear is simply a business decision.

You can assume you, as a newbie 50, means your team is going to start in a disadvantageous position.

If you wear full Recruit gear, your team is slightly less disadvantaged than before. This means you'll win slightly more often, so you'll gear up slightly faster. You being stronger also makes it more likely you'll hit the 8 necessary medals, so even if you lose the game you're still going to get better rewards and cut down the gearing up time.

So is 300K a worthy investment to cut down some time for gearing? Well it depends on how good you think you are. If you believe your team is doomed so you'll just lose your way to BM gear while getting 3 mdals a game, then you don't need it. If you've more self-esteem than that, you can certainly make an argument for either way.

stinkybird's Avatar


stinkybird
05.10.2012 , 11:58 AM | #157
i seen a level 50 come in to a warzone last night iwth 10k hp. we all told the eprson to leave and go get the recruit gear. this persons reasponse was "why? i am poor, besides i am not causing you to lose" this person had 0 kills 15 deaths.

the point is this excuse about not having credits is a joke. the reason these people do this is they are LAZY POSs. they hit 50 and decided they were not going to do anymore quest. GO OUT AND DO SOME QUEST FOR AN HOUR OR SO AND YOU WILL HAVE PLENTY OF CREDITS. you make 500k for doing the Corellia quest.

stop using excuses for your LAZY aditudes and go out and earn some credits.

there should be a requirment to have recruit gear for entering warzones at 50.

Astarica's Avatar


Astarica
05.10.2012 , 12:05 PM | #158
Quote: Originally Posted by stinkybird View Post
i seen a level 50 come in to a warzone last night iwth 10k hp. we all told the eprson to leave and go get the recruit gear. this persons reasponse was "why? i am poor, besides i am not causing you to lose" this person had 0 kills 15 deaths.
.
As a side note, do you know how hard it is to die 15 times in a WZ? When I ran my alt Sorc and still thought I was on my tank so I charged into melee range of anyone I saw, I still only died 12 times. I died 15 times on a game where I was camped by the enemy at spawn in Voidstar where I pretty much died the moment I jumped down. I'm actually curious what's the record for the most number of deaths in a WZ.

Krayshawn's Avatar


Krayshawn
05.10.2012 , 12:13 PM | #159
Quote: Originally Posted by L-RANDLE View Post
Q: Since the EXP difference between Recruit and BM is small, why is it such a noticeable difference when you are in a WZ?
A: Better main/sec stats (I.E. in the GRAND scheme of things main/sec stats DO matter in PvP).
You forgot RATING, that is a HUGE part of disparity between gear. Also, BM/WH provides a SET BONUS recruit does not. Also, Expertise has a very Different Hard/soft cap then most other stats (that secret formula you were babbling about is in front of you nose).
edit: oh and Pre 1.2 you werent sitting at 700 EXP
The Krayshawn Legacy:
Krayshawn - Vanguard El'Diablo - 29/12/0 Jug
Mufasa, GM : <Hakuna Matata> - Jedi Covenant

Krayshawn's Avatar


Krayshawn
05.10.2012 , 12:20 PM | #160
Quote: Originally Posted by mcgrace View Post
Would you insist the coach let you play your next football, soccer, baseball, etc ... game if you weren't wearing your cletes? "But coach, I couldn't afford my cletes. I should still be able to play!!"

Nope. It hurts the team, and you.

When I hit 50 on my BH. I tried getting into a HM Kaon group. The leader inspected me and apologized that he would not let me in the group since my gear was underpar and they would not be able to finish with me in the group. He suggested I do my dailies and run HM BT, BP, etc to gear up.

I got it. Understood. I wouldn't want me in there either if I were to be the cause of failure.

The same should apply to PVP. If you are going to be a detriment to your team. Why join? It's common sense.

To all of those screaming "You were 50 once....let them play." Yeah, you're right. I was 50 once and I geared up so I could actually compete and contribute towards winning.
I like your analogy, it's true.
Also, Now people should have NO problem being geared (for pvp) at new 50. PvP (while your better then everyone else) Pre-50; i recommend 47-50 ( come on, your going to spend your time at 50 pvping anyway) get maxed coms, maxed valor. Now you have two options. You can basically either buy Full BM at 50 or a WH piece.
The Krayshawn Legacy:
Krayshawn - Vanguard El'Diablo - 29/12/0 Jug
Mufasa, GM : <Hakuna Matata> - Jedi Covenant