Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Bioware: Don't be afraid of imbalance if it's earned.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Bioware: Don't be afraid of imbalance if it's earned.

EpicLotus's Avatar


EpicLotus
05.05.2012 , 01:09 AM | #1
I'd like to start by saying I enjoy the game, as-is. I have a significant amount of playtime invested into my 50 Bounty Hunter, and I am very much enjoying leveling an Operative alt (my first Legacy character!). While I understand many people's complaints over various issues (especially bug-related ones), I think there's a lot more angst going on than is deserved. Therefore, this thread isn't about venting frustrations with "lol-easymode" or "BW better fix X,Y,Z or I'm unsub and bye", but offering some genuine criticism over the way the game has been laid out.

First of all, Bioware seems to be putting a lot of time and effort into balancing classes and hitting target numbers. This is all well and good for creating a baseline by which people should be measured, but it also takes away their uniqueness. For example, Joe is a fully Rakata-geared sorc, and he has his talents in X/Y/Z. His buddy Bob is also a Rakata-geared sorc, with the same talent spec. Between updates 1.1 and 1.2, there was nothing either of them could do to stand out from the other in terms of performance after they got that last Rakata piece, assuming they were equally adept at running their DPS rotations. After nabbing their final piece of gear, it was nothing but running repeat raids for helping out friends and guild members, or farming for vanity items. At least before 1.2, with drops separated by the 4 base classes, a group would have to be extremely lucky to fully clear a boss' loot table in a month. Now, with the generic tokens, it's guaranteed that in two months, everyone will have all they need off a Denova boss. Then, assuming the Nightmare version comes out in two months, there will again be a new tier that players will chase.

What I'm driving at is both how generic and short-term these rewards are proving. Without degrading too far into reminiscence over older MMO's, I will say some of them knew how to create epic goals for players. That sense of the epic, the awesome and seemingly unobtainable, is what's really missing from SWTOR. There is nothing a player can work toward that will make them truly stand-out from their fellow players, and is applicable whether you're into PVE or PVP. Both sides of the game could use a boost like that.

Make it a weapon, a datacron, or a truly unique piece of armor. Let it take a long time to acquire, say six or eight months of regular effort. It doesn't have to be about a daily grind for commendations, either. Like the recent Rakghoul event, it could be an epic journey that slowly unlocks day after day, week after week. Increase the difficulty and the reliance on other players as the quest progresses (though not exclusively reliant on other players, but perhaps a small time advantage of going the group-route). Give people small rewards along the way to show off their progress, maybe a title at the one month mark, and a special mount (not just a re-skin, but something new, and perhaps be uniquely faster, too) after the 3 month mark.

Make it worth the journey, though. When a player emerges from the ordeal of a six or eight month quest line, give them something that will be truly epic: Satele Sha'an's lightsaber, with stats that no one will match for two or three years; the armor of Mandalore himself, that can withstand some of the most powerful foes in the game; a special force ability that makes a player unrivaled in healing. Let players be truly epic, but only if they earn it. Let them be demanded in raid groups; let them wipe the floor against their PVP opponents; let them feel like they the center of the galaxy. Make it open to everyone to try, but enough of a challenge (which again, does not just mean repetitive grind) so that only a relative handful on each server exist.

Then, when a few of the diligent players begin to emerge with their newfound epicness, give them an equally epic challenge. Make it something that cannot be won by a casual group. Maybe hey can't even attempt it. Give the epic player a unique raid buff that other players require to enter the instance (call it "Inspired", or some such attribute that heroes and villains give to their comrades-in-arms).

Make it a fight that must be endured, not merely a race through mechanics against an enrage timer. Take your target numbers and your metrics, figure out when a group should be bottoming out on energy or force or heat, and put the fight right at that limit. Let the fight run fifteen or twenty minutes, longer even, and let there be room for a hero to emerge. Let the epic player be the tipping point. Biggs and Porkins can go down, and Wedge can pull out from damage, but Han Solo can fly in at the last moment and help Luke win the day. That's missing from this game.

Everyone wants to be a hero, but not everyone should be. Give everyone the opportunity, but only let the determined persist through.

SajmanPeetee's Avatar


SajmanPeetee
05.05.2012 , 01:16 AM | #2
People that don't have a job and are still living in mom's basement are not superior gamers, they just have a significant amount of time on their hands. These players do not deserve extra rewards for being real world losers.

There's no 'skill' involved in PvE content, all you're doing is mashing keys on a keyboard against a set number of variables. To be a successful raider, all you need is experience and time, and experience comes with time. Give a group of monkeys an infinite amount of time and they will best every hard-mode encounter in the game.

monkgryphon's Avatar


monkgryphon
05.05.2012 , 01:18 AM | #3
No thank you. Balance is more important than you think. You don't want to push away newer players, because they came in late. It will be tough competing with those who have been around for this long period of time to unlock these epic gears, well how will a newbie compete and still have fun? They can start their epic journey for the gear but will always be hindered by those who already have it, and it wont be fun for them. Then they leave the game as they feel there is no room for them.

EpicLotus's Avatar


EpicLotus
05.05.2012 , 01:53 AM | #4
The problem with both of those points is that it means your storyline starts and stops whenever Bioware's between patches. The whole crock with the Legacy system is that, for the most part, it's exclusive to one player. There's plenty of ways around making an epic reward exclusive to the basement dwellers, too. It can be about the number of days/months a person plays, not necessarily about the number of hours in that day spent in game (though for the level I'm talking about, basement dwellers would/should have an advantage). Let players become epic through an alternate route than the mass number of players will take. Let them be known for being one of the few with the Legendary item. Let their guild gain notoriety because they're in it.

Also, while Bioware should be concerned with newer players, giving people something to aspire to is hardly detrimental. Not every player that goes down this road will be a basement-dwelling momma's boy slogging his epeen in everyone's face. In fact, basement-dwellers are probably the kind of players this type of quest will weed out because they tend to have short-attention spans and will be on to the next shiny MMO as soon as it hits its beta-weekend. SWTOR needs subscription numbers, sure, but it also needs a core player-base with longer-term content available. I'm addressing one way to approach that longer-term content, and that's by offering something to the crowd who wants challenges with long-standing rewards and have the time available to invest in obtaining them. Doesn't make them (or me, as one of those types) a basement dweller.

Spankyjnco's Avatar


Spankyjnco
05.05.2012 , 02:15 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by SajmanPeetee View Post
People that don't have a job and are still living in mom's basement are not superior gamers, they just have a significant amount of time on their hands. These players do not deserve extra rewards for being real world losers.

There's no 'skill' involved in PvE content, all you're doing is mashing keys on a keyboard against a set number of variables. To be a successful raider, all you need is experience and time, and experience comes with time. Give a group of monkeys an infinite amount of time and they will best every hard-mode encounter in the game.
Wow...

I raid 3 nights a week from 6:30 - 9. Sometimes only 2.

Day 1 is Nightmare KP and EV. Day 2 is Story Mode Denova, followed by 1 or 2 bosses of Hard Mode denova, day 3 is cleanup of anything left over, and the rest of hard mode denova.

A entire team in PVP/Tionese mix of gear can clear Hardmode EV and KP if they are competant, and know what the definition of a "skill rotation" is.

We had a full rakata Merc that always seemed to be performing badly, and we never knew why until we got the ability to check parsers, and come to find out while we are all pumping 1300-1600 dps, he was putting out roughly 700. Turns out he didn't know what a rotation was and was very quick to understand when we explained to him. He played nearly all day.

I gave you the polar opposites of examples there. Very little time played, yet almost full campaign gear, and skilled, and play all day but suck and still get gear.

Either way.. nothing in this game is time consuming... at all.

smexymage's Avatar


smexymage
05.05.2012 , 02:19 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by EpicLotus View Post
I'd like to start by saying I enjoy the game, as-is. I have a significant amount of playtime invested into my 50 Bounty Hunter, and I am very much enjoying leveling an Operative alt (my first Legacy character!). While I understand many people's complaints over various issues (especially bug-related ones), I think there's a lot more angst going on than is deserved. Therefore, this thread isn't about venting frustrations with "lol-easymode" or "BW better fix X,Y,Z or I'm unsub and bye", but offering some genuine criticism over the way the game has been laid out.

First of all, Bioware seems to be putting a lot of time and effort into balancing classes and hitting target numbers. This is all well and good for creating a baseline by which people should be measured, but it also takes away their uniqueness. For example, Joe is a fully Rakata-geared sorc, and he has his talents in X/Y/Z. His buddy Bob is also a Rakata-geared sorc, with the same talent spec. Between updates 1.1 and 1.2, there was nothing either of them could do to stand out from the other in terms of performance after they got that last Rakata piece, assuming they were equally adept at running their DPS rotations. After nabbing their final piece of gear, it was nothing but running repeat raids for helping out friends and guild members, or farming for vanity items. At least before 1.2, with drops separated by the 4 base classes, a group would have to be extremely lucky to fully clear a boss' loot table in a month. Now, with the generic tokens, it's guaranteed that in two months, everyone will have all they need off a Denova boss. Then, assuming the Nightmare version comes out in two months, there will again be a new tier that players will chase.

What I'm driving at is both how generic and short-term these rewards are proving. Without degrading too far into reminiscence over older MMO's, I will say some of them knew how to create epic goals for players. That sense of the epic, the awesome and seemingly unobtainable, is what's really missing from SWTOR. There is nothing a player can work toward that will make them truly stand-out from their fellow players, and is applicable whether you're into PVE or PVP. Both sides of the game could use a boost like that.

Make it a weapon, a datacron, or a truly unique piece of armor. Let it take a long time to acquire, say six or eight months of regular effort. It doesn't have to be about a daily grind for commendations, either. Like the recent Rakghoul event, it could be an epic journey that slowly unlocks day after day, week after week. Increase the difficulty and the reliance on other players as the quest progresses (though not exclusively reliant on other players, but perhaps a small time advantage of going the group-route). Give people small rewards along the way to show off their progress, maybe a title at the one month mark, and a special mount (not just a re-skin, but something new, and perhaps be uniquely faster, too) after the 3 month mark.

Make it worth the journey, though. When a player emerges from the ordeal of a six or eight month quest line, give them something that will be truly epic: Satele Sha'an's lightsaber, with stats that no one will match for two or three years; the armor of Mandalore himself, that can withstand some of the most powerful foes in the game; a special force ability that makes a player unrivaled in healing. Let players be truly epic, but only if they earn it. Let them be demanded in raid groups; let them wipe the floor against their PVP opponents; let them feel like they the center of the galaxy. Make it open to everyone to try, but enough of a challenge (which again, does not just mean repetitive grind) so that only a relative handful on each server exist.

Then, when a few of the diligent players begin to emerge with their newfound epicness, give them an equally epic challenge. Make it something that cannot be won by a casual group. Maybe hey can't even attempt it. Give the epic player a unique raid buff that other players require to enter the instance (call it "Inspired", or some such attribute that heroes and villains give to their comrades-in-arms).

Make it a fight that must be endured, not merely a race through mechanics against an enrage timer. Take your target numbers and your metrics, figure out when a group should be bottoming out on energy or force or heat, and put the fight right at that limit. Let the fight run fifteen or twenty minutes, longer even, and let there be room for a hero to emerge. Let the epic player be the tipping point. Biggs and Porkins can go down, and Wedge can pull out from damage, but Han Solo can fly in at the last moment and help Luke win the day. That's missing from this game.

Everyone wants to be a hero, but not everyone should be. Give everyone the opportunity, but only let the determined persist through.
I agree, I feel there is nothing Unique between the factions. A Jedi Knight and a Sith Warrior are exactly the same and this goes through all classes.

Furthermore, I feel each race should be more unique. Casting and Melee animations should be different for each species, how they un, walk and talk should also be different. It adds so much colour.

Story aside, I don't see the point in playong a Jedi Knight as skills and combar feels exactly the same as my Sith Warrior. So much more could be done to add some colour into this brilliant game.
. Never Forget

HumanSheild's Avatar


HumanSheild
05.05.2012 , 02:28 AM | #7
open your eyes..game is a copy of other mmos....ofc the other faction is gona be a copy of each other and so forth. Its easy for the programers. duh.

Dont see how you "gamers" can use the word imbalance when you all play the same game thats been around for well over 10 years and refuse to change.

ZORG's Avatar


ZORG
05.05.2012 , 02:51 AM | #8
EQ1 Had the EPIC Weapon quest. Its was nice but it wasn't updated as new content was released. It eventually was rendered irrelevant and pointless. They also made the mistake of requiring RAID level events to complete with 50+ real players. TOR could have a similar quest line. I think Sages should have something similar to the CLERIC weapon. Instead of REZ it could have a COMPLETE HEAL spell just as an example. Yes yes Sorcs too. I then would like to see shadows get a Champion level CC ability on there weapon. DPS commandos could get a potential ONE SHOT CHAMPION LEVEL NPC KILL ability. Guardians could get PVE Invincibility ability with automatic massive hate generated. Sentinels could get 1 minute of full focus and no cool downs. Gunslingers could get AREA EFFECT CC. Scoundrels could get a NO HATE AREA DOT.
Vanguards could get IMPROVED GUARD which makes guarded target invulnerable. Obviously these do not work in PVP. There would have to be a complete different set of quests for PVP. Being that everything in pvp must be level and equal I don't really know how to approach that.

These are just Ideas and probably game breaking lol but I am trying to think out of the box...
Fear leads to Anger
Anger leads to hate
HATE leads to suffering

Macroecon's Avatar


Macroecon
05.05.2012 , 09:11 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by SajmanPeetee View Post
People that don't have a job and are still living in mom's basement are not superior gamers, they just have a significant amount of time on their hands. These players do not deserve extra rewards for being real world losers.
So what if I started my own business at age 22, built it into a mini-empire and sold it for millions at age 40, married an ex-swimsuit model, and then spent the next five years donating my time to various charities before deciding to retire at age 45 so I could spend lots of time doing what I truely love - playing PC video games? Do I deserve full WH gear then? Just asking...

Tenacity's Avatar


Tenacity
05.05.2012 , 10:22 AM | #10
Quote:
There's no 'skill' involved in PvE content, all you're doing is mashing keys on a keyboard against a set number of variables. To be a successful raider, all you need is experience and time, and experience comes with time. Give a group of monkeys an infinite amount of time and they will best every hard-mode encounter in the game.
If that were true, my guild wouldnt still be the only one on Namadii corridor with unyielding titles, earned by killing karagga on nightmare mode in under 2 hours, or the infernal title earned by completing eternity vault on nightmare mode in under one hour.

PvE accomplishments last. PvP accomplishments dont - five minutes after looking at that scoreboard, nobody else is going to care that you got 900k damage in a warzone match.
THE LYNX LEGACY THE HARBINGER
Lynx --- Bastet --- Pakhet --- Leonen --- Maihos
Shock and Jawa Full Metal Jawa