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Buff Operatives


khouj's Avatar


khouj
05.04.2012 , 02:52 AM | #1
Let's have a realistic discussion.

In the current state of the game, conc operatives/ scrapper smugglers are a below average melee damage class. They can deal burst damage, but not as well as some other classes, while at the same time they lack mobility/survivability (these are the same thing sometimes). Additionally, they are behind or slightly behind other classes sustained damage output. To make up for these weaknesses they have only stealth, which loses its power naturally over time as player skill rises.

The main point I want to make is, to a well played ranged or semi ranged class in a 1v1 the operative is currently a joke. The class is simply trivial to kite and falls apart quickly once any initial momentum is lost. This might not be noticed by most players who have limited experience fighting operatives, and aren't aware how easy to kite they are, let alone ever try it themselves. I believe the classes weaknesses are set to be exposed with the release of any competitive pvp, which will give a clearer view of balance in high level swtor.

Think about huttball, where the weakness of operatives is actually widely recognised. All flavours of operative, but dps ops especially since they are melee, are weak in huttball. The class simply lacks any kind of mobility or utility ability.

I will give out a tip I think will surprise many players. When you are knocked on your face by an operative, this stun only lasts for ~1.5s, the same duration as the global cooldown. Many, many operatives will use another damaging ability in their second global instead of using their 4 second stun, leaving you a gap to use your own stun or mezz on the operative. If they do not have their cc break cooldown up you just ruined their entire opener and can walk to safety/snare the operative etc. - basically escaping unscathed. I see players fail to use this opportunity time and time again. I'm saying start trying to get out of melee range as your number one priority, because this is the achilles heel of the class.

I see the main argument against buffing operatives as being: on average, operatives are in an OK place balance wise right now, so why should they be buffed in any way? While I personally think that the game should be balanced around high level pvp (where dps ops are sorely lacking), many would disagree, and objective data won't exist until competitive pvp is introduced anyway. So I propose operatives be buffed in a way that corrects their worthlessness at very skilled levels of play, without altering the average power of the class which most players will face.

I suggest the mobility of operatives be buffed substantially. The amount of damage the class can frontload will be unchanged, and this is the part of the class people are sensitive about. Nobody is complaining that operatives can stick to their target too well, only that they 'just three shot them while stunned', right?

Imagine an operative with the leap of a marauder, only without the root or interrupt (in other words shadowstep). You may imagine an operative leaping out of nowhere and killing you very fast, but what is the difference between that and appearing out of stealth? Or, Imagine an operative with a skill similar to force sprint, only half the speed.

I think it's clear what I am trying to say, buff the mobility of operatives to make them competitive in high level play now, and general play in the future as average skill rises.

Delorae's Avatar


Delorae
05.04.2012 , 03:00 AM | #2
I'm lvling up an Operative atm as Conc, and I'll have to agree we definitly need a charge or leap, or a short-term movement burst.
All melee classes should have a quick way to get in range of a target; warriors have charge, assassins have their force speed thing... But yea.. operatives don't have anything -_-

kweassa's Avatar


kweassa
05.04.2012 , 03:03 AM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by khouj View Post
Let's have a realistic discussion.

In the current state of the game, conc operatives/ scrapper smugglers are a below average melee damage class. They can deal burst damage, but not as well as some other classes, while at the same time they lack mobility/survivability (these are the same thing sometimes). Additionally, they are behind or slightly behind other classes sustained damage output. To make up for these weaknesses they have only stealth, which loses its power naturally over time as player skill rises.

The main point I want to make is, to a well played ranged or semi ranged class in a 1v1 the operative is currently a joke. The class is simply trivial to kite and falls apart quickly once any initial momentum is lost. This might not be noticed by most players who have limited experience fighting operatives, and aren't aware how easy to kite they are, let alone ever try it themselves. I believe the classes weaknesses are set to be exposed with the release of any competitive pvp, which will give a clearer view of balance in high level swtor.

Think about huttball, where the weakness of operatives is actually widely recognised. All flavours of operative, but dps ops especially since they are melee, are weak in huttball. The class simply lacks any kind of mobility or utility ability.

I will give out a tip I think will surprise many players. When you are knocked on your face by an operative, this stun only lasts for ~1.5s, the same duration as the global cooldown. Many, many operatives will use another damaging ability in their second global instead of using their 4 second stun, leaving you a gap to use your own stun or mezz on the operative. If they do not have their cc break cooldown up you just ruined their entire opener and can walk to safety/snare the operative etc. - basically escaping unscathed. I see players fail to use this opportunity time and time again. I'm saying start trying to get out of melee range as your number one priority, because this is the achilles heel of the class.

I see the main argument against buffing operatives as being: on average, operatives are in an OK place balance wise right now, so why should they be buffed in any way? While I personally think that the game should be balanced around high level pvp (where dps ops are sorely lacking), many would disagree, and objective data won't exist until competitive pvp is introduced anyway. So I propose operatives be buffed in a way that corrects their worthlessness at very skilled levels of play, without altering the average power of the class which most players will face.

I suggest the mobility of operatives be buffed substantially. The amount of damage the class can frontload will be unchanged, and this is the part of the class people are sensitive about. Nobody is complaining that operatives can stick to their target too well, only that they 'just three shot them while stunned', right?

Imagine an operative with the leap of a marauder, only without the root or interrupt (in other words shadowstep). You may imagine an operative leaping out of nowhere and killing you very fast, but what is the difference between that and appearing out of stealth? Or, Imagine an operative with a skill similar to force sprint, only half the speed.

I think it's clear what I am trying to say, buff the mobility of operatives to make them competitive in high level play now, and general play in the future as average skill rises.

1. You have stealth.
2. Pick your battles carefully.
3. Problem solved.


(ps)
Quote:
Imagine an operative with the leap of a marauder, only without the root or interrupt (in other words shadowstep). You may imagine an operative leaping out of nowhere and killing you very fast, but what is the difference between that and appearing out of stealth?
Thanks for admitting your stealth is your gap closer.
So, since you already have a gap closer, tell me why you need another one?
"To everything, there is a first step. The first steps in becoming better at PvP, is to acknowledge the fact that you totally suck. There's no shame in this -- even the greatest of players have been there, done that.
Stop complaining. Ask more questions. People are happy to help."

Squatdog_nz's Avatar


Squatdog_nz
05.04.2012 , 03:06 AM | #4
Quote:
1. You have stealth.
2. Pick your battles carefully.
3. Problem solved.
Assassins have stealth, a gap closer, a (talented) pull and survivability.

Operatives have one of these.

Cempa's Avatar


Cempa
05.04.2012 , 03:07 AM | #5
At max level with proper itemization the class/build does what the designers want:

Heavily front-loaded damage, in other words massive burst during the opener.

Change that and the class design changes.

Keep that and buff the class and you approach Alpha.

---
“When I left you, I was but the learner, now I am the master.”

khouj's Avatar


khouj
05.04.2012 , 03:10 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by kweassa View Post
1. You have stealth.
2. Pick your battles carefully.
3. Problem solved.
A classic counter argument to just about anything involving stealth classes, but the thing is while you can in fact do this and never die in several pug warzones in a row whilst racking up impressive numbers, it does nothing to help the problem I am addressing in my post... Which is the viability of the class when playing against very good players.

Operatives do excel at smashing down weak players, I know.
Quote: Originally Posted by kweassa View Post
Thanks for admitting your stealth is your gap closer.
So, since you already have a gap closer, tell me why you need another one?
Stealth is a little different to a gap closer. It lets you open in melee range once, sure. I thought I was thorough in my post explaining why I thought operatives need another one.

khouj's Avatar


khouj
05.04.2012 , 03:17 AM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Cempa View Post
At max level with proper itemization the class/build does what the designers want:

Heavily front-loaded damage, in other words massive burst during the opener.

Change that and the class design changes.

Keep that and buff the class and you approach Alpha.

---
Doing more than what the designers want isn't automatically 'approaching alpha'. I'm sure the designers also want every class to be balanced well.

kweassa's Avatar


kweassa
05.04.2012 , 03:23 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Squatdog_nz View Post
Assassins have stealth, a gap closer, a (talented) pull and survivability.

Operatives have one of these.
Who cares? Were we talking about Assasins?
Them needing a nerf is a seperate subject to discuss, and in no way justifies anything.
"To everything, there is a first step. The first steps in becoming better at PvP, is to acknowledge the fact that you totally suck. There's no shame in this -- even the greatest of players have been there, done that.
Stop complaining. Ask more questions. People are happy to help."

Squatdog_nz's Avatar


Squatdog_nz
05.04.2012 , 03:30 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by kweassa View Post
Who cares? Were we talking about Assasins?
Them needing a nerf is a seperate subject to discuss, and in no way justifies anything.
Assassins are the other stealth-based class and are FAR better than Operatives in every way apart from being able to spec for heals.

LMAO@stealth being a 'gap-closer' like Force Charge, Grapple, Force Sprint etc...

kweassa's Avatar


kweassa
05.04.2012 , 03:33 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by khouj View Post
A classic counter argument, but the thing is while you can in fact do this and never die in several pug warzones in a row whilst racking up impressive numbers, it does nothing to help the problem I am addressing in my post... Which is the viability of the class when playing against very good players.
...except very good Ops/Scoundrels do very well, when they are very good Ops/Scoundrel players themselves. When I think about 'good players' regardless of faction, some names immediately come up to my mind, and quite a few of them are Ops/Scoundrels which excel in what they do best.


Quote:
Operatives do excel at smashing down weak players, I know.

Stealth is a little different to a gap closer. It lets you open in melee range once, sure. I thought I was thorough in my post explaining why I thought operatives need another one.
And with due respect, my response is self explanatory.
Getting that "once" is what Ops/Scoundrels do better than any other. Its what the class was built to do.

WZs aren't 1vs1 duels. If you can burst someone in the opening stages and send 40% of their HP flying to kingdom come within the first 5 seconds of contact, then that alone is plenty enough a job Ops/Scoundrels do. Conversely, picking out enemies who only have that 40% or so HP left and sending themselves to kingdom come, is also a plenty worthy job as the "executioner", they are.

Drop the presumption that an Ops/Scoundrel needs to be able to 1vs1 every enemy and kill it in whatever the given situation despite being outside their own combat/time frame of maximum performance.
"To everything, there is a first step. The first steps in becoming better at PvP, is to acknowledge the fact that you totally suck. There's no shame in this -- even the greatest of players have been there, done that.
Stop complaining. Ask more questions. People are happy to help."