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Bioware... STOP NERFING!

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Bioware... STOP NERFING!

MnniBeast's Avatar


MnniBeast
05.01.2012 , 05:55 PM | #1
I'm not even sure if this is the right forum to post under, but what the heck i'll rant anyways, feel free to comment or disagree players . I play a level 50 BM Jedi shadow infiltrator spec and have basically played the game since it started. I have watched nerf after nerf as Bioware has destroyed the fun out of most classes, with the exception of a few (and i'm sure everybody knows exactly who i'm talking about). I'll just make a brief list of my rant or lack of for every class:

Commando/Mercenary: What the hell are you thinking? Why do you listen to the noobs who sit and complain (not that there’s anything wrong with that…) about the other classes because they’re “too OP” or some… trash… like that. Honestly nerfing these guys was a bad idea (and no I do not have either of these, I deleted my mercenary before patch 1.2 because I wanted his name). If people complain that they are being “tracer spammed” too much need a news flash: they had it coming. The unmistakable animation that tracer had before patch gave the person a clear sign they were about to be smoked. Any person dumb enough not to use their cooldowns at this time has no excuse, and if they were cooling down, then oh well! They got a good kill! Nerfing the **** out of tracer missile was unnecessary BW, if you notice the geared high level characters did NOT complain about this, why? Because they were smart and realized that tracer missile was the meat and beans of this class needed to set up heat-seeker and railshot. Notice! More people complained about tracer than gravity shot because it was more noticeable, so to shut the noobs up all you had to do was make a few people pissed by changing the animation to something much less cool, but I’d guarantee they would be much happier than now! With a tracer missile that doesn’t dent a bug and a heat-seeker missile that crits for 8k+ damage (I saw a picture on the forums, do the research or the math). Honestly lets get some balance here…

Powertech/Vanguard: This class seems to be happy, ok dps and good tanking, nothing else to be said, don’t nerf.

Jedi Sentinel/Marauder: This class has an ungodly amount of DPS for a non-burst class, don't nerf please because you will ruin the fun for even more players and probably get more people to quit. And no I'm not being sarcastic. And seriously, don’t touch this class (and no I do not have a sentinel, you can check my file).

Jedi Guardian/Sith Juggernaut: Unfortunately, I don’t know as much about this class… but from the little that I’ve heard it is relatively lacking compared to the other tanking classes, feel free to give it an extra tank-based boost (not dps).

Jedi Sage/sith sorcerer: Ok now to healers… Dps is fine, they are doing great in PvP, what I have a problem with is the healing. After your 1.2 patch the time to kill went down dramatically. May I ask how or why? I am doing no more damage as a shadow but somehow people are killing me faster because the healers were mega-nerfed. Honestly guys? I’d rather have EVERYBODY be gods than you to make the game one big nerf-gun fight. Now I’ve seen some people say that the sage’s shield is OP, this is pissing me off because what people don’t realize is that sages have light armor… yea which means they’re squishies people. So why don’t you guys just shut the **** up (excuse my language) and just dps through the damn shield like a normal person. So BW, give the sage their heals back!

Jedi Shadow/Sith Inquisitor: Ok now to my class, why the hell did you nerf our burst? Honestly? It’s a burst! It’s SUPPOSED to be OP! Now, I’m happy with a 3.5k crit on my burst. I faced a jedi sentinel in PvP today on my shadow, 1v1 thank god all of my cooldowns were ready because guess what? My burst + my defensive cooldowns (all of them) all added up to me killing him! Without some of his cooldowns and I had 5% hp left… Now what kind of burst is that? I can’t even take on a person 1v1 like I should! Honestly if you don’t give a stealth class a proper burst than what the hell are they supposed to do?!?!? If my burst is on a 1.25 minute cooldown and for that 10 seconds-15 seconds of my burst I am equal to a sentinel then that is not right. Un-nerf the surge so that we get some damage back. Or if you’re worried about the kinetic tree to get too much damage, then use your head and IMPROVE the surge on the infiltrator tree! Even more than it actually is!

Scoundrel/Operative: Mostly the same argument, this class still has decent worth though in their crit, even though you nerfed them to the ground. A good scoundrel on my server (Sampson) has showed me this many times, and the funny thing is… my burst doesn’t do nearly as well as his (wow go figure!) and we’re both stealth classes. Honestly since the infiltrator burst is delayed, it has to be set up by different moves, it should at least do as much damage if not more to make up for the delay, this fact has really surprised me how the shadows don’t do nearly enough damage to balance between them and operatives. But operative dps is fine right now, maybe increase their damage a little bit but not much. Operative healers are fine with their crits I’ve heard so I don’t have much else to rant about.

Gunslinger: Doing a great job with them BW, (no sarcasm) they are being a pain in the *** for melee classes as they should so that means you’re doing a good job. Their assortment of knockbacks is a good balance to keep them alive, I like it.

Overall: Bioware, stop nerfing the **** out of the game, rebuild the game back up to before and learn to tell the difference between a noob talking about being “tracer spammed” and an expert talking about DPS differences. Honestly it wouldn’t hurt if you put some players on your board of whatever that give you ideas for this game, or at least play the game yourselves. Level a specific class from 1-50 and find out what its flaws are compared to other classes. Honestly I don’t see why you nerfed the healers that much, nerfed the **** out of the commandos and mercs, and made shadow burst as much as sentinel normal damage, honestly guys? Oh and by the way great game, I love the story lines and I know this message might be harsh and might not even get to you but SWTOR is a good game, besides some minor flaws… And if anybody disagrees or has something to add to this feel free to ***** me out.

Phantomlimbs's Avatar


Phantomlimbs
05.01.2012 , 06:07 PM | #2
I agree and it's one of the reasons I unsubbed a few days ago. I hit my breaking point and was like - "eff this, I'd rather play LoTRO than this p.o.s."
"Equality is a chain, like obedience. Like fear or uncertainty or self doubt." -Bane

Bobinstein's Avatar


Bobinstein
05.01.2012 , 06:10 PM | #3
tl;dr

I WANT MY SORC BACK!
stupid nerf because of stupid warzone fanatics being jealous...
a word of advise. collect all the stamps you can, if you control the post no one can send you threatening letters.

Tangenobi's Avatar


Tangenobi
05.01.2012 , 06:12 PM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by MnniBeast View Post
I'm not even sure if this is the right forum to post under, but what the heck i'll rant anyways, feel free to comment or disagree players . I play a level 50 BM Jedi shadow infiltrator spec and have basically played the game since it started. I have watched nerf after nerf as Bioware has destroyed the fun out of most classes, with the exception of a few (and i'm sure everybody knows exactly who i'm talking about). I'll just make a brief list of my rant or lack of for every class:

Commando/Mercenary: What the hell are you thinking? Why do you listen to the noobs who sit and complain (not that there’s anything wrong with that…) about the other classes because they’re “too OP” or some… trash… like that. Honestly nerfing these guys was a bad idea (and no I do not have either of these, I deleted my mercenary before patch 1.2 because I wanted his name). If people complain that they are being “tracer spammed” too much need a news flash: they had it coming. The unmistakable animation that tracer had before patch gave the person a clear sign they were about to be smoked. Any person dumb enough not to use their cooldowns at this time has no excuse, and if they were cooling down, then oh well! They got a good kill! Nerfing the **** out of tracer missile was unnecessary BW, if you notice the geared high level characters did NOT complain about this, why? Because they were smart and realized that tracer missile was the meat and beans of this class needed to set up heat-seeker and railshot. Notice! More people complained about tracer than gravity shot because it was more noticeable, so to shut the noobs up all you had to do was make a few people pissed by changing the animation to something much less cool, but I’d guarantee they would be much happier than now! With a tracer missile that doesn’t dent a bug and a heat-seeker missile that crits for 8k+ damage (I saw a picture on the forums, do the research or the math). Honestly lets get some balance here…

Powertech/Vanguard: This class seems to be happy, ok dps and good tanking, nothing else to be said, don’t nerf.

Jedi Sentinel/Marauder: This class has an ungodly amount of DPS for a non-burst class, don't nerf please because you will ruin the fun for even more players and probably get more people to quit. And no I'm not being sarcastic. And seriously, don’t touch this class (and no I do not have a sentinel, you can check my file).

Jedi Guardian/Sith Juggernaut: Unfortunately, I don’t know as much about this class… but from the little that I’ve heard it is relatively lacking compared to the other tanking classes, feel free to give it an extra tank-based boost (not dps).

Jedi Sage/sith sorcerer: Ok now to healers… Dps is fine, they are doing great in PvP, what I have a problem with is the healing. After your 1.2 patch the time to kill went down dramatically. May I ask how or why? I am doing no more damage as a shadow but somehow people are killing me faster because the healers were mega-nerfed. Honestly guys? I’d rather have EVERYBODY be gods than you to make the game one big nerf-gun fight. Now I’ve seen some people say that the sage’s shield is OP, this is pissing me off because what people don’t realize is that sages have light armor… yea which means they’re squishies people. So why don’t you guys just shut the **** up (excuse my language) and just dps through the damn shield like a normal person. So BW, give the sage their heals back!

Jedi Shadow/Sith Inquisitor: Ok now to my class, why the hell did you nerf our burst? Honestly? It’s a burst! It’s SUPPOSED to be OP! Now, I’m happy with a 3.5k crit on my burst. I faced a jedi sentinel in PvP today on my shadow, 1v1 thank god all of my cooldowns were ready because guess what? My burst + my defensive cooldowns (all of them) all added up to me killing him! Without some of his cooldowns and I had 5% hp left… Now what kind of burst is that? I can’t even take on a person 1v1 like I should! Honestly if you don’t give a stealth class a proper burst than what the hell are they supposed to do?!?!? If my burst is on a 1.25 minute cooldown and for that 10 seconds-15 seconds of my burst I am equal to a sentinel then that is not right. Un-nerf the surge so that we get some damage back. Or if you’re worried about the kinetic tree to get too much damage, then use your head and IMPROVE the surge on the infiltrator tree! Even more than it actually is!

Scoundrel/Operative: Mostly the same argument, this class still has decent worth though in their crit, even though you nerfed them to the ground. A good scoundrel on my server (Sampson) has showed me this many times, and the funny thing is… my burst doesn’t do nearly as well as his (wow go figure!) and we’re both stealth classes. Honestly since the infiltrator burst is delayed, it has to be set up by different moves, it should at least do as much damage if not more to make up for the delay, this fact has really surprised me how the shadows don’t do nearly enough damage to balance between them and operatives. But operative dps is fine right now, maybe increase their damage a little bit but not much. Operative healers are fine with their crits I’ve heard so I don’t have much else to rant about.

Gunslinger: Doing a great job with them BW, (no sarcasm) they are being a pain in the *** for melee classes as they should so that means you’re doing a good job. Their assortment of knockbacks is a good balance to keep them alive, I like it.

Overall: Bioware, stop nerfing the **** out of the game, rebuild the game back up to before and learn to tell the difference between a noob talking about being “tracer spammed” and an expert talking about DPS differences. Honestly it wouldn’t hurt if you put some players on your board of whatever that give you ideas for this game, or at least play the game yourselves. Level a specific class from 1-50 and find out what its flaws are compared to other classes. Honestly I don’t see why you nerfed the healers that much, nerfed the **** out of the commandos and mercs, and made shadow burst as much as sentinel normal damage, honestly guys? Oh and by the way great game, I love the story lines and I know this message might be harsh and might not even get to you but SWTOR is a good game, besides some minor flaws… And if anybody disagrees or has something to add to this feel free to ***** me out.
I agree but the problem imo is the complainers and nerf this class whiners...They pay their fee like us and feel as though they should be heard...In reality they should be ignored and bioware should make the game how they want and tweek accordingly( to reasonable criticism from players of course).
Jedi Sentinel- Tan-jenobi (Tan-Jenobee) Jedi Guardian-GyonGunslinger- BlastmastaJedi Shadow- Ky'zin
Commando- Radonn
Sage- Dartanus

MnniBeast's Avatar


MnniBeast
05.01.2012 , 06:15 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Tangenobi View Post
I agree but the problem imo is the complainers and nerf this class whiners...They pay their fee like us and feel as though they should be heard...In reality they should be ignored and bioware should make the game how they want and tweek accordingly( to reasonable criticism from players of course).
Exactly, noobs who are level 35 go "oh damn I died to a tracer spammer, what a noob!" I was like chill guys, don't rip on it because you died. They basically nerfed everything fun into the ground, I'm expecting a sentinel/marauder nerf here soon... And your comment about listening to players, I think you're exactly correct, I think they should get a respected person who is lvl 50 in a specific class for every class, across the servers to give BW their ideas and perspective on game changes.

Suba's Avatar


Suba
05.01.2012 , 07:40 PM | #6
Stop nerfing? Agents and Warriors got unneeded buffs that make their class stupidly overpowered to the point that servers are being flooded with rerolls.

MnniBeast's Avatar


MnniBeast
05.01.2012 , 08:36 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Suba View Post
Stop nerfing? Agents and Warriors got unneeded buffs that make their class stupidly overpowered to the point that servers are being flooded with rerolls.
Ok so you're going to nerf them? And piss off a major segment of the community? I guarantee 110% that Bioware, although it might take 2-3 months, they will realize that something is OP and might unfortunately nerf them, or be smart and buff everybody else's class. I also guarantee that this chasing around the best class will never stop. Remember when shadows and assassins were amazing? Yeah people would roll assassins and shadows like no tomorrow and then NERF! Nobody has the right to be nerfed like the assassins did and if you want to level the playing field, you have to give each class their specialty back, whether its the tracer missile back for your bounty hunter, or your burst damage capabilities back for the assassins. Honestly nerfing everybody to the ground makes this game boring and the fights 30 seconds long. Yeah... good luck with your nerfing...

MSPSith's Avatar


MSPSith
05.01.2012 , 09:50 PM | #8
I love this thread. It basically has said everything I have been thinking. Minus a few classes that I didn't care about. But I play a Merc and have been playing a Merc since the very beginning of the game going public. I loved it! It was so awesome popping off a few tracer missiles and watching as healers tried frantically to heal their comrade because they knew a Merc BH would smoke them in the next 3 seconds if they didn't. Although, that being said, I ran my *** off from a fare share of other classes. Assassins and shadows were the players to avoid because they would just wreck kids. hahaha

Quote: Originally Posted by MnniBeast View Post
Exactly, noobs who are level 35 go "oh damn I died to a tracer spammer, what a noob!" I was like chill guys, don't rip on it because you died. They basically nerfed everything fun into the ground, I'm expecting a sentinel/marauder nerf here soon... And your comment about listening to players, I think you're exactly correct, I think they should get a respected person who is lvl 50 in a specific class for every class, across the servers to give BW their ideas and perspective on game changes.
I agree completely that BW needs to have some kind of high level, very experienced players on a panel to tell them the things they should take under consideration. I also agree that instead of nerfing the players repeatedly just leave them alone. I would rather be wrecked by a class because I got outplayed then just realizing that my arsenal of awesomeness couldn't blow up a freaking Ford Pinto even if I hit it in the rear with a tracer missile.

It is a sad day indeed for us Merc's but hopefully we will be avenged in the next patch, because I am way too lazy to re-roll a new class just because it's the flavor of the week.

pipda's Avatar


pipda
05.02.2012 , 01:24 AM | #9
Whether the nerfing or buffing is needed is beside the point.

People get tired of having their chosen class continuously screwed with. This was one of the reasons I left WOW. Sometimes we get a class to max level and realize...we really don't enjoy the play styles and reroll. Which is a choice we make...specially with your first toon and you see what end game is really like...and get a firm grip on the aspects of the game that you really enjoy.

Then you find the class you enjoy, maybe just a specific spec. Some people enjoy the manic button smashing of a Sentinel, some enjoy the proc based game play of a Pyro Powertech. Then one day...poof changes all around and your playstyle is gone, you don't enjoy your character any more. Maybe that change was needed, not the point. Next thing you know your spec may no longer be viable, broken even. A developer does this enough and they can manage to piss off everyone. True of any MMO

What really irk'd me about BW...they started swinging a nerf hammer around before they ever even had the bugs worked out of the talent trees.

UnlimitedPowuh's Avatar


UnlimitedPowuh
05.02.2012 , 02:22 AM | #10
I'll agree with the general premise of the OP and add more.

Nerfing speaks to several things internally as well as externally. Firstly, the developers should have internal testing done such that they can or could provide numbers (or at least know them internally) about the range of capability of a spec or class and the scaling of every ability and/or skill. This is pretty much paramount as this makes up a large part of how the PVE encounters are designed. Whether it be 8m or 16m, with Enrage Timers as tight as they are, the barriers to completion are optimum 'rotations or priorities' and to some extent, gear and skill. No amount of skill is going to save your OPs group from dying if you still have 20% to go on the boss when he enrages. So, the only other two factors are optimum play and gear. Gear can't be obtained if you can't kill bosses progressively.

The above can be applied to many other areas of the game. You can't go leveling and beat a level 40 mob as a level 30, you're going to get wrecked, as it should be. For the most part I think BW has done a good job at balance in that context. There were some quests (non-heroic 2/4s) where I was just about able to complete the task but I either utilized skills wrong, managed cds wrong, had a little less gear than I needed or maybe needed one or two levels in rare cases.

Now then, BW must have some basis of class/spec capability otherwise how could they balance encounters? Now maybe they didn't account for every possible scenario/rotation variation/use of buffs etc, but that's understandable.

So, when the nerfs start incoming and come because of PVP, that's when people need to step back and really evaluate the situation they were in and the 'unknowns'. Did the other player have better gear? Did the other player have all CDs up, were yours down, did you do all that you could to prevent damage, etc? Now in some cases maybe you did, but there's no reason to nerf another class over that. Having counter-classes is what makes PVP dynamic. If we all have the same CDs, the same damage type, etc. etc. etc., then basically it's a game of who has the best latency... and that's not "FUN".

Instead of saying; Nerf X- Class because Y ability is killing me dead every single time, you should first rule out what you could've done differently or better. If I sit and duel class x and he constantly beats me and I try everything possible with my class to counter his abilities and do EXTENSIVE testing and use different things at different times etc and he still wins, then maybe, just maybe you have a case for the developers in BUFFING you or giving you a tool to help out on said class. Otherwise, nerfs are not called for, period.

I hate to bring WOW into the debate but it serves a purpose. The uniqueness of almost every class in WOW has been negatively affected due to PVP. Back in the day you had counter-classes and that was just the way it was. If a rogue jumped on my lock, I pretty much knew - curtains for me. Now I could still try and maybe catch him making a mistake but it was OK because there was a class that I countered as well. That, was balance, or rather, as close to it as you're really ever going to get when you're not playing a FPS with everyone playing the same class, because then what's the point, it might as well be a FPS and not an MMO. When warriors complained they didn't have enough gap-closers to catch that lock that was kiting him 'til death from dots, it just started and endless arms race of nerfs/buffs. What we were left with was mages being the only class truly able to kite and melee classes able to have more uptime which unbalanced the PVP gameplay for the rest of casters. That's just ONE example. When everyone complained and got an interrupt, same same, more of the same. Homogenization will dull the gameplay and experience overall.

Nerfing for PVP reasons is just bad all around. At worst, the best way to adjust for pvp is to make abilities affect players slightly differently or even separately so that you can balance it/tweak it so that PVE is NEVER affected.

It really does concern me that some of the nerfs that have happened already have occurred in less than 4 months of game release. That says to me that either the internal numbers weren't up to snuff for BW, or that they capitulated to the PVP crowd with in essence, anecdotal evidence, or both. Or, it could also mean that PVP skills/abilities weren't as balanced as they should've been at release, for example, a melee class or spec not having any gap-closers or a ranged class not having a gap-opener, or damage vs. survivability etc.

So, BW has to be really careful with the nerfs to placate the masses regarding PVP or it could seriously affect PVE with how encounters are designed currently as well as leading to an arms race for every class which no one will win, it'll just be a roller-coaster of FOTM's until they can nerf that one and make the other class OP for awhile... you get the picture.

I never like to see nerfs, because generally the encounters are supposed to have been balanced around the classes at the time they're developed etc. Nerfs after the fact disrupt that balance and then cascade, which is a lot worse than someone crying because they got blown up in a WZ. Even if PVP is your only interest in this game, you still have to respect the fact that other people have to play their class in the role they chose on the PVE side of it, because it's there too. Now I know the PVP-only guy will probably say, but PVP deserves respect too, and you're right, but there are other ways to go about than simply calling for the NERF!