Guardian/jugg damage pvp specs are pathetic compared to the sent/maur.

Guardians/juggs ( we are ignoring tank spec here ) - have useless damage ( and focus spec is very boring )

so really guardian/jugg pvp specs are ~ of sent/maur classes without any of survivability.

In my view guardian vs sent should be a close fight however - sents will win this 90% of the time.

Any ways I would like to hear your thoughts on the class survivability disparity.

before people tell me l2p etc etc.. i have a shadow ( i play all specs yet that class is broken except for tank spec ) and when a focus guardian/jugg is around, its easy to stop their dmg, pulls, force wave, root etc etc

Guardian/jugg damage pvp specs are pathetic compared to the sent/maur.

 

Guardians/juggs ( we are ignoring tank spec here ) - have useless damage ( and focus spec is very boring )

 

so really guardian/jugg pvp specs are ~ of sent/maur classes without any of survivability.

 

In my view guardian vs sent should be a close fight however - sents will win this 90% of the time.

 

Any ways I would like to hear your thoughts on the class survivability disparity.

 

before people tell me l2p etc etc.. i have a shadow ( i play all specs yet that class is broken except for tank spec ) and when a focus guardian/jugg is around, its easy to stop their dmg, pulls, force wave, root etc etc

What do you expect? It's a tank class. Unless you're running around with a healer in tow, don't expect to last long, even if you're mitigating damage. I've never played a game where tank classes were efficient PVPers. It just doesn't translate well.

What do you expect? It's a tank class. Unless you're running around with a healer in tow, don't expect to last long, even if you're mitigating damage. I've never played a game where tank classes were efficient PVPers. It just doesn't translate well.

Well, there are 3 specs, 2 dps and 1 tank spec.. so guardians can tank but saying they are a tanking class is not correct, vanguards can tank and hell they can put out alot of dmg too. In this game there are no "tanking/healing classes per say" just classes with the ability to do both.

so u never played wow, and seen a moral strike warrior ( surely warriors are a tank class ) ?

I've never played a game where tank classes were efficient PVPers. It just doesn't translate well.

Warhammer Online.

Guardian/jugg damage pvp specs are pathetic compared to the sent/maur.

 

Guardians/juggs ( we are ignoring tank spec here ) - have useless damage ( and focus spec is very boring )

Thats not true.As Vigilance my damage is awesome.

I had a stalemate in Alderaan a few days ago where i did 822k damage while the second had 460k.And i am not even specced in free/better Force Sweeps atm -so thats mostly single target.

It was a weired match and rare setting -my damage is usually half of that it but shows damage potential.

My survivability is far worse than that of a Sentinel tho.

I would immediately switch to a single Saber Sentinel if they implement it.

Force Push and iconic Single Saber are pretty much the only reason i prefer my Guardian over my Sentinel.

Oh well and i love Unremitting

Well, there are 3 specs, 2 dps and 1 tank spec.. so guardians can tank but saying they are a tanking class is not correct, vanguards can tank and hell they can put out alot of dmg too. In this game there are no "tanking/healing classes per say" just classes with the ability to do both.

 

so u never played wow, and seen a moral strike warrior ( surely warriors are a tank class ) ?

Jedi Guardians and Protection Warriors are two completely different concepts, as are the rest of the classes in ToR. In WoW, you have some classes with 3 roles. Druids, Paladins and Shamans can either heal, tank, or DPS.

In WoW, you can choose to specialize in either PVE tanking or integrate PVP talents into a tank build, but the difference is that all of the useful pvp talents as a tank are built into the protection tree. You will select those talents over certain PVE talents which don't serve much purpose in a PVP environment, and once you've reached your 31 point talent, you spend the remaining talents in an area in one or both of the remaining DPS trees. There is only one protection tree to build on, especially in today's dumbed down, homogeneous WoW environment. However, it's always been that way. The three talent trees were designed to express a specific, unique flavor and play style for the class. You were either a DPS warrior (Fury, Arms) or a Tank (Protection).

In TOR, Guardians are set up to be tanks exclusively. BUT, Bioware stepped it up a notch and included 3 distinct trees within the tank specialization to address and compliment a person's specific play style and add variety(Pure avoidance, avoidance plus DPS, and PVP). At the end of the day, regardless of spec, they are still tanks. Tank classes have and will always be designed to mitigate/redirect damage to themselves and generate threat, NOT to be a pure DPS class. In the hierarchy of DPS, tanks are always at the bottom. The reason tanks deal so little damage is because they are designed to resist, avoid and mitigate damage. Imagine if you had a tank who was equal to say a Jedi Sentinel in damage. They'd be virtually unstoppable. There has to be checks and balances.

What I like about the game is that you have exclusive DPS classes with 3 different trees to build from, tank classes with 3 different trees to build from and healing classes with 3 different trees to build from. You have 3 times as many options. If you're looking to deal high DPS, you're looking for it in the wrong class. And while yes Vigilance is designed to address the issue of low DPS in the Defense tree, it still limits itself for the sake of balance.

Especially when dps classes have better defensive cooldowns than tanks, and armour means nothing in pvp...

Warhammer Online, DAoC, And a few more..

OP - Why roll a Guardian if you are trying to do damage? It's called a VanGUARD, and a GUARDian for a reason. If you wan't to mitigate a lot of damage and dish out just as much then your asking for something that isn't possible. That would also be a bit overpowered I believe.

^

There are DPS spec's to the Guardian skill tree. Not just defensive.

Jedi Guardians and Protection Warriors are two completely different concepts, as are the rest of the classes in ToR. In WoW, you have some classes with 3 roles. Druids, Paladins and Shamans can either heal, tank, or DPS.

 

In WoW, you can choose to specialize in either PVE tanking or integrate PVP talents into a tank build, but the difference is that all of the useful pvp talents as a tank are built into the protection tree. You will select those talents over certain PVE talents which don't serve much purpose in a PVP environment, and once you've reached your 31 point talent, you spend the remaining talents in an area in one or both of the remaining DPS trees. There is only one protection tree to build on, especially in today's dumbed down, homogeneous WoW environment. However, it's always been that way. The three talent trees were designed to express a specific, unique flavor and play style for the class. You were either a DPS warrior (Fury, Arms) or a Tank (Protection).

 

In TOR, Guardians are set up to be tanks exclusively. BUT, Bioware stepped it up a notch and included 3 distinct trees within the tank specialization to address and compliment a person's specific play style and add variety(Pure avoidance, avoidance plus DPS, and PVP). At the end of the day, regardless of spec, they are still tanks. Tank classes have and will always be designed to mitigate/redirect damage to themselves and generate threat, NOT to be a pure DPS class. In the hierarchy of DPS, tanks are always at the bottom. The reason tanks deal so little damage is because they are designed to resist, avoid and mitigate damage. Imagine if you had a tank who was equal to say a Jedi Sentinel in damage. They'd be virtually unstoppable. There has to be checks and balances.

 

What I like about the game is that you have exclusive DPS classes with 3 different trees to build from, tank classes with 3 different trees to build from and healing classes with 3 different trees to build from. You have 3 times as many options. If you're looking to deal high DPS, you're looking for it in the wrong class. And while yes Vigilance is designed to address the issue of low DPS in the Defense tree, it still limits itself for the sake of balance.

Jedi Guardians and Protection Warriors are about as similar as you can get between two different games, as well are the rest of the classes in TOR compared to their WoW counterparts. WoW having 2 out of 10 classes with 3 roles is irrelevant to the point you were attempting to make. Shamans do not have 3 roles.

In TOR you can choose to specialize in PvE tanking or choose to integrate PvP into a tank build as well. All of the useful PvP talents are indeed not built into the Protection tree. They are spread around just like in TOR. You're saying exactly what happens in TOR except in WoW currently you have even less flexability since you are required to spend 31 points in one tree before you can spend your remaining 10 points.

In TOR, Guardians are not set up to be tanks exclusively. The trees are not what you say they are. Vigilence/Vengeance is not "avoidance plus DPS" and Focus/Rage is not "PvP." At the end of the day, the Defense/Immortal trees are the only tank specs of the class(es). Tanks in this game are not bottom. For the most part, the DPS specs of the hybrids in this game are fine and within 5% of the 2 pure DPS classes. The DPS specs of the tank classes do not mitigate a ton of dmg, so there is no reason for such a trade off to exist.

The healing classes are much of the same and are on an even playing field with the rest. I don't know where you received all this false game knowledge concerning classes from, but it's grossly incorrect and I just couldn't allow someone to read your post and get the wrong idea about how this game is balanced.

Saying a Guardian = a Protection warrior is kind of a bogus pigeonhole... even in WoW, a protection warrior could respec to 2-Hand and **** face... a Guardian should be able to do the same thing. Simply put, there aren't enough damage mitigation skills in the tank tree and not enough damage boosts in the DPS trees.

An easy DPS fix would be to move "Single Saber Mastery" to the 31 point slot, and give it a massive damage increase, like +50% damage when using a focus instead of a shield... then it'd be more like a 2 Handed warrior in WoW.

The guardian has alot of nice tools to be fair. Intercede, force push (which reduces the CD on force leap), unremitting (if you specc vigilance), focused defense (which improves in vigilance) etc.

It's build for Huttball (yes I know the Sent can just pop Zen).

I like my Guardian - too bad it's on a very low pop server :-(

OP - Why roll a Guardian if you are trying to do damage? It's called a VanGUARD, and a GUARDian for a reason. If you wan't to mitigate a lot of damage and dish out just as much then your asking for something that isn't possible. That would also be a bit overpowered I believe.

Well, among other things, for the aesthetic of a jedi knight who uses only a single light saber. In Star Wars film and stories, dual-wielding jedi aren't common. If you play this game at least in part because you like the idea of being a character in that universe, there is an appeal to the single light saber aesthetic.

I knew what I was getting into when I rolled Guardian. I had taken a look at the Focus and Vigilance trees and even though they have dps talents, it's obvious that the focus of the class is tanking. You discover this even more as you start progressing and you realize that for the most part your trainer is giving you defensive and threat talents. A better design would have enabled the vigilance tree to be the single-saber dps champion. Perhaps they'll get around to making that happen in a future release.

Guardian/jugg damage pvp specs are pathetic compared to the sent/maur.

 

Guardians/juggs ( we are ignoring tank spec here ) - have useless damage ( and focus spec is very boring )

 

so really guardian/jugg pvp specs are ~ of sent/maur classes without any of survivability.

 

In my view guardian vs sent should be a close fight however - sents will win this 90% of the time.

 

Any ways I would like to hear your thoughts on the class survivability disparity.

 

before people tell me l2p etc etc.. i have a shadow ( i play all specs yet that class is broken except for tank spec ) and when a focus guardian/jugg is around, its easy to stop their dmg, pulls, force wave, root etc etc

Ok... first off saying we have useless damage is false, there are proven to be many guardians who are able to top damage charts, which I think is hardly useless

Saying that our pvp specs are the same as sentinel cept with no survivability is also an incorrect statement...vigilance / defense hybrids have very nice defense, not to mention naturally we have great defense

Saying sentinels win 90% of the time is just a very vague and subjective statement, win 90% of what? I beat marauders all the time... So i'm confused....

There's my thoughts

My survivability is far worse than that of a Sentinel tho.

I would immediately switch to a single Saber Sentinel if they implement it.

Force Push and iconic Single Saber are pretty much the only reason i prefer my Guardian over my Sentinel.

Oh well and i love Unremitting

I totally second that. I don't have much experience with SWTOR yet - I dont even have a character to lvl 50. But i've leveled a Guardian to lvl 21, and a Shadow to 20, and I can tell you that my Shadow is both more survivable, and does more damage than the Guardian.

The only reason I would play Guardian is for exactly the same reason as the poster quoted above - for Single Saber (looks the best - imho), and Force Push. But really, it's just hard to play Guardian - it's not just that their damage is low, it's that they are not that tough either.

I started playing TOR a month ago and have a 27 shadow and while i agree it has decent survivability but to compare it to that of a guardian is rediculous as some people here have been. The same goes for comparing it to a sentinel. It is like comparing a sage to my shadow. All the classes are different and it depends on your play style. I have played DAOC Armsmans, WoW Paladins and Warriors, and tank classes in other games.

Regardless of the game you play, it is how you play that matters. My 22 Guardian is generally in the top 5 of damage (vigilance spec) and i almost always come out on the top for medals earned. My gear is decent and i will say that if there is not a healer present i sometimes have problems staying alive. But come on my sent is a glass melee toon. My shadow can stay alive longer but i can also vanish when i need to and go run and heal up. Vis toons will always have a harder time without a healer because they cant just hide.

The statement that sentinels win 90% of the time is also kinda rediculous as well. I have dueled a couple of sents that are around my level, highest was a 25 and beat them all. In most pvp matches i rarely lose to a maurader. I mean youtube guardian pvp dps, you can watch a lot of videos on them kicking some serious ***. Yes a healer is generally in tow, but not all of them. Also if you don't like it roll a differnet toon. That is was is nice about this game.

Favorite thing about this game, there are no permanet roles just play

As a FULL, and I mean FULL, Defense Guardian, I'm yet to lose any warzone one on one fights. Snipers, assassins and Pyro powertech can pose as real threat that often requires me to use warzone medpack and Enure, but anything else either dies before I do or I die when their reinforcements show up, but never have I fall in one on one fights since lvl 40. Do not underestimate Blade Barricade and Blade Barrier, they can be life-savers when kept up. And you should never run out of Focus except you use your slash consecutively after you get 3 points in Cyclonic Sweeps.

The problem I see here is a lot of guardians want to do everything at once, you want both great damage AND survivability at the same time, this is wrong to begin with. Try Full defense for a full week when you have every defensive skill then come back and tell us you lack survivability. I've yet to experience full Vigilance nor Full Focus, but as a Full Defense Guardian, I can tell you sometimes its even a little hard to die when there's someone healing you and I can only imagine Full vigilance/focus should yield similar results in DPS compartment. I will test it personally after I prepare myself full set of dps gear.

As a FULL, and I mean FULL, Defense Guardian, I'm yet to lose any warzone one on one fights. Snipers, assassins and Pyro powertech can pose as real threat that often requires me to use warzone medpack and Enure, but anything else either dies before I do or I die when their reinforcements show up, but never have I fall in one on one fights since lvl 40. Do not underestimate Blade Barricade and Blade Barrier, they can be life-savers when kept up. And you should never run out of Focus except you use your slash consecutively after you get 3 points in Cyclonic Sweeps.

 

The problem I see here is a lot of guardians want to do everything at once, you want both great damage AND survivability at the same time, this is wrong to begin with. Try Full defense for a full week when you have every defensive skill then come back and tell us you lack survivability. I've yet to experience full Vigilance nor Full Focus, but as a Full Defense Guardian, I can tell you sometimes its even a little hard to die when there's someone healing you and I can only imagine Full vigilance/focus should yield similar results in DPS compartment. I will test it personally after I prepare myself full set of dps gear.

I agree with everything but saying we can't have it all at once, i have awesome damage and sometimes i go whole warzones without ever dying

on top of that we can protect others, its truely and awesome class and anyone who doesn't like it should just reroll and quit complaining so much

sentinels have their own perks, its a whole different ball park, I'm sure its nice having that 5 seconds of insane damage and crazy defenses but after its all over you're just a rag doll with 2 sticks

I somehow think if full defence guardians were doing sentinel dps there would be a whole of host of qq threads.

As a Focus specced guard I can Force Sweep for upwards of 5k which if you ask me ist very good damage.

The classes are designed to that if you want to lead the damage tables you need to spec for it

I have a vig guard at 50 an I could not disagree more with the title of this thread. As far as leveling, we r late bloomers, but after I got our healing companion I never stopped to heal. An as far as pvp, I run full vig in sorensu guarding a healer an never have a problem melting anything 1v1. We have three interrupts if used properly gives us 5 in a row an as far as dps we melt everything just as fast if not faster. So interrupting everything being thrown at u while waxing said interrupted (an now highly frustrated) in the face with Ur glow stick just destroys your comment. As long as everyone keeps complaining about vig guardians, the longer we will fly under the radar rofl stomping all the way to the top

Suycide Vig Guardian Zez-Kai Ell (PvP)

I have 50 level Vanguard soon Guardian on that level too. I play pvp a lot.

Far as I can tell I like burst more what Guardian can offer. And I don't see hugh tradeoff what comes to survivability.

The only weakness guardians, or knights, have is lack of range.

Lack of significant ranged damage means they are bit more in danger zone than classes that can hurt from range and run away easily. But those classes have to throw more dots and do small continous streams of damage to kill. They are bit slow in it I think.

I think Knights are very deadly at close range and fast killers if they are played well and most CC is not on CD. Much much more than my vanguard that supposedly is melee too.

Hmmm damage output is far from poor. Only class that regularly gets close is BH. We have some nice interrupts (Kick/Stasis/Push/Leap) and 2 jumping moves, as well as a CC slow and Force Push, so we can pretty effectively stop most 1 to 1 incoming attacks. Then we have Enure for temporary 30% heal, Combat Focus can be specced to heal 10%, Saber Ward provides some solid defense, and Guardians can use Soresu form for 60% armor increase and 3% more damage reduction. No problems with survivability there.

But then, sometimes you can play a warzone and get killed every time you look at an enemy player. That's just PvP for you. But Guardians/Juggernauts are far from having bad survivability or damage output. In the end, any class can be made very effective in any part of the game if it's specced and played well. Guardians are no exception.

Hell, i didn't know my 6k aoe sweeps are useless and boring. I thought for the enemy they are irritating and infuriating. Also i didn't know that the 200k guard in the same boring focus spec is so useless.

The class i very versatile. Far more than the class from which it was copied in that other game.

one friend from my server is a guardian-vigilance/def build with war-hero vindicator set, and he usually put 300-400k dmg in the warzones, i play guardian - pure defense build, with 2 war hero and all the other battlemaster war leader gear, and i must say i have good survivability and usually pull 120-220k.

Your point?

Shadow tanks, without much war hero, can put up 500k+ in warzone without much effort. In tank stance.

I repeat, shadow tanks put up more damage than Viginlance freakign Guardians in War Hero. And they can do it rather easily. Not to mention while having the best cooldowns, utility and self-heal in the entire game.