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Proof that Tracer Missile and Heat Seekers are broken

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Proof that Tracer Missile and Heat Seekers are broken
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Lostpenguins's Avatar


Lostpenguins
05.02.2012 , 02:02 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by StrykerOne View Post
That's a little unintuitive... if I have 55% armor penetration then my first instinct would be that I'll reduce a target's DR by 55%, but in this instance the actual DR is only reduced by a bit over 40%.
Actually, that's your fault for assuming that's how the statement worked out. I assumed it only reduced the armor value of the target as they described so it sounds right to me. Another reason why Accuracy is useless. No reason to pump Accuracy to absurd levels in hopes of getting 20-30% armor penetration which would maybe boost dps by 10% at the sacrifice of Crit and Surge.

Hadlis's Avatar


Hadlis
05.02.2012 , 02:04 PM | #22
Thanks for the dev response...but playing an arsenal spec BH in 1.2 is just a chore now. Prior to the nerfs "changes" I could go up against most professions and do well...now I feel like cannon fodder. I don't see the reason for taking away our damage....all we could do was try and out dps the other classes. We need more utility and less dependance on TM for our damage as it's to unreliable due to it being so easy to interupt. Making it so that PS also applies the same Debuff might help. I honestly think this spec needs to be completly redone.

I have shelfed my BH and now have a fresh level 50 marauder...with all the devensive CD's at my disposal and interupts I'm sure I could beat most battlemaster aresenal spec BH's............working as intended
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Holinyx's Avatar


Holinyx
05.02.2012 , 02:08 PM | #23
i gotta say, as a 50 Arsenal merc that does HM Operations pretty often, i really don't see what the fuss is about. i'm still doing a heck of alot of damage. my Tracer still crits for 3k+, i did notice the shorter range of Death From Above, which sucks, but it's not like i'm totally gimped because of it. We have BH Merc Healers in our HM Operations and they are still keeping us alive. maybe it's harder for them, i don't know, but they are still getting the job done.

is it because i don't parse my dps and call MIT to get a super math person to crunch my numbers? maybe we did lose some dps in 1.2 but i gotta say, i haven't noticed it. i'm still soloing Poisonous Strat on ilum. /shrug

*edit* also, i do not do any pvp. so maybe that's what the fuss is about. /shrug
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solidkjames's Avatar


solidkjames
05.02.2012 , 02:20 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by APeckenpaugh View Post
Hi Phasewalker. I wanted to drop in to tell you that these abilities aren't broken. Considering your small sample size, your numbers are actually quite accurate.

I'll go step by step as to why that's the case, but if you're a TLDR kind of reader: operation training dummies have armor that gives them 35% kinetic and energy DR.




The tooltip says that on average you deal 1804 kinetic damage with Tracer Missile, and you found that on average, your Tracer Missile inflicts 1410 kinetic damage. You include that this is with 5 stacks of Heat Signatures and with High Velocity Gas Cylinder running.

In this test, you ignore 55% of the target's armor rating. 20% from Heat Sigs + 35% from your Cylinder.

Operations training dummies have 5814 armor rating (not visible to you), which translates through our armor formula to about 35% DR. With your setup, you cut that armor rating down by 55%, effectively turning it into 2616 armor rating. [5814 * 0.45 = 2616] 2616 armor rating translates through our armor formula to 19.5% DR.

Therefore, an average Tracer Missile would deal 1804 kinetic damage, and a target with 19.5% DR would take 1452 kinetic damage. [1804 * 0.805 = 1452] This is only 3% different than the 1410 you reported, which given your small sample size is well within expectations.




The same methodology above applies to your Heatseeker Missiles. The tooltip says they deal an average of 2194 kinetic damage. Since the target has 5 Heat Signatures, that HSM deals 2632 kinetic damage. [2194 * 1.2 = 2632] Cutting through the same 55% armor rating as before, the target still has 19.5% DR, meaning that on average, your HSM inflicts 2119 kinetic damage. [2632 * 0.805 = 2119] This is only 1% different than the 2145 you reported, which given your small sample size is well within expectations.



All tooltips in the game show damage dealt, not damage inflicted after armor. Our tooltips do not show you the damage the ability will inflict after the target's armor.

I hope this clears things up for you guys. To the best of my knowledge, these abilities are still working as intended.
So what you are saying is the 400-500 dps less I'm seeing as of last patch is a direct result of HSM being nerfed by 25%? Or were all of our abilities benefitting from the debuffs of other mercs and class? It is obvious that HSM is not hitting for 10% more than it was in 1.1 in all cases. And other abilities are not ramping up in damage as the 20 percent is stacking on the target.

All that aside, the most frustrating part of all of this is you balanced all of the Hardmode content on pre 1.2.0c damage and seeing how Mercs were hit with a nerf bigger than any class thus far, yes even the Operatives who still top the damage meters, it is apparent that you guys need to look at the fights as a whole again.

The fights are so tightly tuned that having 1 person underperforming all but guarantees a wipe. Not to mention most of the fights such as Stormcaller/Firebrand required 2 ranged players in constant movement. While we have killed these bosses in hardmode you can be certain that the vast majority of your playerbase are not going to be able to complete this content. Not because it's hard, but because the math doesn't add up unless you are a min maxer. Not to mention making massive scale changes without even testing it. The devs are quickly losing my faith in their ability to blance PVE and PVP. Seems it will be a constant back and forth like the good ol boys at blizzard and after 7 years those idiots still haven't figured out you can't balance PVP in a PVE centric game.
May the common SENSE be with you, ALWAYS!

theunwarshed's Avatar


theunwarshed
05.02.2012 , 02:37 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by APeckenpaugh View Post
Operations training dummies have 5814 armor rating (not visible to you), which translates through our armor formula to about 35% DR. With your setup, you cut that armor rating down by 55%, effectively turning it into 2616 armor rating. [5814 * 0.45 = 2616] 2616 armor rating translates through our armor formula to 19.5% DR.
so by cutting their armor rating by more than half how is it that their DR doesn't also reduce by more than half?

also, i get that you guys want our dps to be consistent with other dps classes; however, those other dps classes still have far more utility and defense compared to merc. i can accept being middling dd, but i can't accept that as well as not having an interrupt nor better defensive options (like an escape) that the other dps classes all possess.
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TimoTribal's Avatar


TimoTribal
05.02.2012 , 02:55 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by APeckenpaugh View Post
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All tooltips in the game show damage dealt, not damage inflicted after armor. Our tooltips do not show you the damage the ability will inflict after the target's armor.

I hope this clears things up for you guys. To the best of my knowledge, these abilities are still working as intended.
So if the damage is now correct for these abilities, how long was it incorrect for? How long have your play testers been playing with a class with broken abilities, providing information which then feeds into meetings for balancing the class? I ask because right now the class is obviously below par in both PvP and PvE and from what I can see, I must gather that in previous test and balancing the information from your internal testers just does not correlate with how the class is to play on live right now. I say that as I cannot believe it is a purposeful design decision to have a class which has next to no utility and such weak DPS when compared to other classes in the game.

Vid-szhite's Avatar


Vid-szhite
05.02.2012 , 02:59 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by theunwarshed View Post
so by cutting their armor rating by more than half how is it that their DR doesn't also reduce by more than half?
Diminishing Returns. This is why Heavy Armor is often said to be not as useful as it seems on the surface - after a while, more armor starts giving you less, and the diminishing returns start getting really bad at around 30%. Having 35% just from armor means you'd have to have an insane amount of armor, and AFAIK is not reachable by players without talents, so the first half will be armor that was already subject to diminishing returns. This also means that adding more armor debuffs from other players will result in even more of an increase in damage.

Quote: Originally Posted by Lostpenguins View Post
Actually, that's your fault for assuming that's how the statement worked out. I assumed it only reduced the armor value of the target as they described so it sounds right to me. Another reason why Accuracy is useless. No reason to pump Accuracy to absurd levels in hopes of getting 20-30% armor penetration which would maybe boost dps by 10% at the sacrifice of Crit and Surge.
Accuracy has never given armor penetration, and I'm surprised this myth still continues to spread. Accuracy over 100% reduces defense chance, NOT Armor. The in-game loading-screen hints are very clear about this. All Operation Bosses have 10% Defense. Accuracy over 110% is probably useless, but you still need over 100% to hit all of your attacks.

PS, increasing your DPS by 10% would be an increase of over 100-150 points, which is nothing to sneeze at.

solidkjames's Avatar


solidkjames
05.02.2012 , 03:03 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Vid-szhite View Post
Diminishing Returns. This is why Heavy Armor is often said to be not as useful as it seems on the surface - after a while, more armor starts giving you less, and the diminishing returns start getting really bad at around 30%. Having 35% just from armor means you'd have to have an insane amount of armor, and AFAIK is not reachable by players without talents, so the first half will be armor that was already subject to diminishing returns. This also means that adding more armor debuffs from other players will result in even more of an increase in damage.
Which is apparently why our dps fell so tremendously. Not only did HSM stop benefitting from others armor debuffs and other classes abilities but every single one of our attacks did. Which is logically the only thing that accounts for a class that lost 1/3 of it's base DPS in one patch.
May the common SENSE be with you, ALWAYS!

Galinbb's Avatar


Galinbb
05.02.2012 , 04:02 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by theunwarshed View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by APeckenpaugh View Post
Operations training dummies have 5814 armor rating (not visible to you), which translates through our armor formula to about 35% DR. With your setup, you cut that armor rating down by 55%, effectively turning it into 2616 armor rating. [5814 * 0.45 = 2616] 2616 armor rating translates through our armor formula to 19.5% DR.
so by cutting their armor rating by more than half how is it that their DR doesn't also reduce by more than half?

also, i get that you guys want our dps to be consistent with other dps classes; however, those other dps classes still have far more utility and defense compared to merc. i can accept being middling dd, but i can't accept that as well as not having an interrupt nor better defensive options (like an escape) that the other dps classes all possess.
Almost fell out of my chair reading this post as a prior Concealment Operative. Then I thought about it - although BH/C is still the best ranged (and close to overall when melee mechanics are factored) DPS in the game, giving them an interrupt would make facerolling operations easier. I say give it to them! If for nothing else than reading the follow-on threads of "I can't do max DPS while interrupting *** BW" and "Should BW DIAF for making us interrupt in operations? A civil discourse." Hilarity.

nezitx's Avatar


nezitx
05.02.2012 , 04:06 PM | #30
I read the Dev reply, and all I could think of was Jon Stewart going "BOOM!"

I'm all for players getting into their classes and crunching the numbers, but damn, someone got served.
Nezy - 50 Marauder (main)
Nez - 50 Operative (alt)
Nezix - First 50 Sorcerer on Vrook Lamar. (retired)