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Jedi Hypocrisy as Displayed on Tython

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Jedi Hypocrisy as Displayed on Tython

Rhadamanthine's Avatar


Rhadamanthine
04.29.2012 , 12:51 PM | #21
On the other hand, on Taris the Jedi go out of their way to try and help the Rakghouls (and get eaten by the DS using ones for their trouble, IIRC).

Anyways, the Jedi are products of their civilization (read: not perfect), plenty of other Republic people look down on primitives, especially nasty, barbaric ones like that. Regardless, they didn't engage in punitive action against the Flesh Raiders, when they're clearly powerful enough to do so, so there's that.

Incidentally as to the matter of illegal settlers, I do think it's somewhat amusing that the Senate goes around telling the Jedi what they can and can't do on their home planet to even that degree, but the Jedi clearly are ok with rolling over and letting them do it. Maybe it's Mandalorian War guilt - now they do whatever the Republic asks no matter how ridiculous it is.

OldVengeance's Avatar


OldVengeance
04.29.2012 , 01:17 PM | #22
How do you know there was no attempts at diplomacy in the past? The Flesh Raiders attack everyone and eat everyone on sight. How do you think any attempts at diplomacy would have gone?

I don't know why everyone says the Sith and Jedi are the same except the Sith are more "upfront" about their wrongdoings.

That is ridiculous. Did you even pay attention to the Sith questing? Do the Jedi keep brutalized slaves that they kill on a whim? Do the Jedi force their students to kill each other to prove who is the strongest? Are Jedi encouraged to attack and subjugate alien races? Are Sith ever expected to fight peaceful solutions? There are Jedi who are devoted to being diplomats. Ar are the Jedi in a never ending struggle for conflict and power?

"Peace is the ideal, padawan. But there is no shame in defending yourself" - Master Shan.

"When something is no longer useful, it should be eradicated." - Overseer Tremel

Lunafox's Avatar


Lunafox
04.29.2012 , 01:25 PM | #23
I agree with the original poster and a few of the others here about Jedi xenophobia and hypocrisy. Without giving too much away I hope, they also behaved that way with the Voss. When the JK speaks to Satale Shan about the Voss, if the JK says that the Voss 'aren't so bad', Shan implies that the JK is being influenced by the 'dark side' (Scourge who is standing right there ). Shan also states that the Jedi don't compromise, its only their way that is right (the light side), so with the Voss being neutral, makes the more like Sith than Jedi.

I've always felt that alot of the Jedi were hypocrits and truth benders if it suits them...you've only to look to the movies. Anakin was expected to spy on his good and close friend for the Jedi Council, yet they pushed him away by not accepting him as a Master. It was like saying we want you to do our dirty work, and be our bish, but don't expect to belong with us. Also look at Obi Wan...and how he manipulated the truth about Darth Vader to Luke. (Darth Vader murdered your father...from a certain point of view.) Mmhmm.

I also agree that you'd think that the Jedi would be more humanitarian and help the Twi'lek people...protect them. The Twi'leks tried to get to know the Jedi with their 'pilgrimage', offering gifts of friendship. The Jedi only went to them when they needed to know something.

As for the point someone made about communication and intelligence...

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent." --Qui Gon Jinn.
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ScarletBlaze's Avatar


ScarletBlaze
04.29.2012 , 01:27 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Clonedzero View Post
i thought it was implied that the fleshraiders never really bothered the jedi that much and kept their distance, thats why the attacks at the begining of the tython character arches are such a surprise to everyone. the flesh raiders never really attacked the jedi until bengal morr organized them into an army against the jedi

the flesh raiders attacked the twi'lek village and the jedi wanted to help but the republic forbid it since it was an illegal settlement. which in a way makes sense. if random refugees who didnt want to join the republic found out that anyone settling on tython would be protected by the jedi by default then everyone would swarm there. the jedis new homeworld would be public knowledge. all sorts of bad stuff.

theres also several quests from jedi masters and such asking you to study their cultural artifacts and shrines so they can learn about the fleshraiders to possibly be peaceful with them. this sorta implies that the jedi tried diplomatic relations with them when they frist arrived but the primitive and violent nature of the fleshraiders probably made the jedi decide to just keep their distance
I did that quest and from what I remember the Lady jedi that you originally talk to explains there have been numerous attempts to come to a reasonable solution and in fact her padawan was sent there to talk to them but the padawan was killed in an attempt to do so, that's why she requests you investigate the arifacts and shrines to see if they can determine how to reach them.

Now are the Jedi perfect? Far from it. They make mistakes as well as anyone.
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Clonedzero's Avatar


Clonedzero
04.29.2012 , 01:32 PM | #25
also, to be fair. its not a normal twi'lek refugee village.

it is sorta a crazy religious cult that was even shunned by other twi'leks lol

Ranadiel_Marius's Avatar


Ranadiel_Marius
04.29.2012 , 02:35 PM | #26
Regarding the fleshraider situation, I've got a quote from Master Gehnso(one of the questgivers for Flesh Raider Factfinding) on the topic:

Quote:
If we understand the Flesh Raiders' culture, what motivates their violence, we may yet forge peace. Unfortunately our emissaries are met with aggression. The latest team fled, but not before witnessing strange idols in the Flesh Raiders' camp.
So based on the quote, the Jedi do send emissaries to try and make peace with the Fleshraiders. Unfortunatly(Master Gehnso turn in dialogue for Flesh Raider Factfinding):

Quote:
Interesting. According to these markings... it's like the Flesh Raiders see us as animals.
So it will be a long process before the Jedi are able to reach the fleshraiders as a whole.

Regarding the pilgrims, while the Order as a whole may not be helping them at the beginning of the game, individual members do. As an example Master Wix(start dialogue for Flesh Raider Factfinding) says the following in regards to the pilgrims:

Quote:
There are those of us who try to prevent their suffering.
Okay not the most detailed quote, but I think it makes my point. Besides, the LS ending for Tython for the JK has the JK suggesting to the Council that they should work closer with the pilgrims, and the Council does appear to open to changing its position. The Jedi may make mistakes, but they are willing to try and correct them when they realize it.
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Rhadamanthine's Avatar


Rhadamanthine
04.29.2012 , 08:06 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by OldVengeance View Post
How do you know there was no attempts at diplomacy in the past? The Flesh Raiders attack everyone and eat everyone on sight. How do you think any attempts at diplomacy would have gone?

I don't know why everyone says the Sith and Jedi are the same except the Sith are more "upfront" about their wrongdoings.

That is ridiculous. Did you even pay attention to the Sith questing? Do the Jedi keep brutalized slaves that they kill on a whim? Do the Jedi force their students to kill each other to prove who is the strongest? Are Jedi encouraged to attack and subjugate alien races? Are Sith ever expected to fight peaceful solutions? There are Jedi who are devoted to being diplomats. Ar are the Jedi in a never ending struggle for conflict and power?

"Peace is the ideal, padawan. But there is no shame in defending yourself" - Master Shan.

"When something is no longer useful, it should be eradicated." - Overseer Tremel
It's fashionable to attack the less morally repugnant side for missteps while equating the acts of gross criminality and evil which the other faction frequently indulges in as equal and 'honest' (when not ignoring them altogether). Cultural relativism also steps in, where if it's the second faction's cultural philosophy to do those things for some esoteric goal, then all the suffering they deliberately cause is justified because ends make the means ok. This is not the only fandom it happens in. It's a fact of life.

SweetOldBob's Avatar


SweetOldBob
04.29.2012 , 08:35 PM | #28
The OP has a point. Really, a Sith is just a Jedi who has stopped taking his meds.

Sorry for the troll-bait, couldn't resist. But interestingly, in the comics, Knights of the Old Republic, a cabal of Jedi murder their padwans and frame the crime on another padwan, Carrick (as in "Carrick Station"), mainly because of their hatred for the Sith and misinterpreted visions of a Sith threat. And as truely evil as these characters were, they somehow did not dabble in the Dark Side.

The Jedi may resemble a monastic order, but they are not saints.
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Rhadamanthine's Avatar


Rhadamanthine
04.29.2012 , 10:15 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by SweetOldBob View Post
The OP has a point. Really, a Sith is just a Jedi who has stopped taking his meds.

Sorry for the troll-bait, couldn't resist. But interestingly, in the comics, Knights of the Old Republic, a cabal of Jedi murder their padwans and frame the crime on another padwan, Carrick (as in "Carrick Station"), mainly because of their hatred for the Sith and misinterpreted visions of a Sith threat. And as truely evil as these characters were, they somehow did not dabble in the Dark Side.

The Jedi may resemble a monastic order, but they are not saints.
TBH, the Jedi Covenant was always kind of weird to me. Not in what they did (it was an interesting plot given how the Covenant was originally established), but how they didn't really receive any direct consequences for it. I guess you can say they got all despondent and guilty over it, but you would figure that for such a horrible act they'd really roll in the Dark Side points. It's been awhile since I've read it so I may be misremembering, but aside from Raana (who became psychotic with rage), they weren't that affected by it.

As for the Jedi not being saints, I should hope not. They should show some amount of restraint with their otherworldly abilities like their training teaches them and not be murderers and thieves, but aside from that seeing lots of Jedi who are just jerks or have otherwise bad personalities doesn't really surprise me. That's just what you're going to get.

Captain_Zone's Avatar


Captain_Zone
04.30.2012 , 12:03 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Clonedzero View Post
also, to be fair. its not a normal twi'lek refugee village.

it is sorta a crazy religious cult that was even shunned by other twi'leks lol
Not so much a religious cult as a different government style. Twi'lek culture is usually a patriarchal society, but the Twi'leks on Tython used a matriarchal form of government where the women were in charge. They broke a lot of traditions, and were ostracized by their own people for it. In fact...

WARNING! MAJOR SPOILER INCOMING!!!!

Spoiler
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Joran Karn: You, my dear Sith, have just mastered the art of understatement.