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Assassin deception pve dps needs big buff

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Shadow / Assassin
Assassin deception pve dps needs big buff

Rhaphael's Avatar


Rhaphael
07.31.2012 , 01:22 AM | #61
The easiest way to fix Deception is to change the talent Charge Mastery from giving 9% Armor Penetration to 20% Armor Penetration. That should increase damage by enough without needing to change any other talents/skills.

Marauders have 20% AP with the talent Shii-Cho Mastery, so there's no reason not to allow it for Deception too.

Werdan's Avatar


Werdan
07.31.2012 , 10:47 PM | #62
Quote: Originally Posted by Rhaphael View Post
The easiest way to fix Deception is to change the talent Charge Mastery from giving 9% Armor Penetration to 20% Armor Penetration. That should increase damage by enough without needing to change any other talents/skills.

Marauders have 20% AP with the talent Shii-Cho Mastery, so there's no reason not to allow it for Deception too.
Armor pen, in and of itself, isn't enough. Even going from 9-20% would only net about a 3% damage boost in total. IMO the spec isn't all that terrible save for some odd skills that could be moved around (to other trees perhaps) and others that need to be reworked. Some examples could be:

-Deception is a fairly "speedy" spec. I'd like to see the Force Speed skills from Lightning Recovery and Disjunction moved over from the Darkness tree to reinforce that sense of speed.

-Insulation needs a buff period. Enough to get us to ~30% damage reduction before picking up Sith Defiance. For an off tank we are extremely squishy. My Mercenary can probably off tank better than Deception spec and he has 31ish% in heavy armor.

-Duplicity needs a total overhaul. First off, the proc chance could use a boost to perhaps 15/30/45%. Secondly, instead of the proc giving half cost and 50% armor pen on the next Maul, change it so that it's good for EVERY Maul used within the proc timer (currently 10s). Reduce the proc duration to 6-7.5s and keep the time between procs at 10s.

-Along those same lines, it would be nice to have a skill that gives a chance to remove the directional requirement for Maul for a short period. More on this later.

-Darkswell and Deceptive power can probably be combined into one skill for the same cost. If made into a 2pt skill have it also increase Dark Embrace to last 8-9s.

-Saber Conduit has a pretty hefty price for a mediocre skill. 100% chance to gain force on an attack that has a 25% proc chance and only every 10s. Make this a 2 point skill (50/100% chance) and reduce the time between procs to every 6s.

-Entropic Field...what a waste of points IMO. What makes it worse is that it's so high up the tree. I'd just as soon trade this for Unearthed Knowledge from the Madness tree which fits better with Deception style of play (mostly melee).

-Resourcefulness just doesn't make any sense for Deception. Lacerate is used more in Darkness spec (to proc Energize) and Overcharge Saber (OS) still relies on Surging Charge low proc rate. I'd like to see this changed to a 5/10 point reduction for Maul and probably a better OS buff. A nice buff would be to remove the directional requirement of Maul while OS is active but remove the CD reduction of OS.

-Static Charge needs to have its description fixed as it does not increase Surging Charge damage (it increases Discharge damage while in the SC stance). If you were looking to buff it I'd include SC damage as well. Otherwise it's a very good skill.

-Low Slash and Voltaic Slash aren't bad but they are weapon damage. Perhaps modify the crit multiplier behind the scenes to try and increase crit damage or make it a skill along the lines of Induction and Claws of Decay (Madness tree).

If beggars were choosers I'd want it all. I know it's not goign to happen, but even a few of the above would be nice to see.
TRACE
THUNDERHIPS
ISHKA
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Griad's Avatar


Griad
08.01.2012 , 07:55 AM | #63
Argue all you want each and every spec should be viable in both PVE and PVP and only be a matter of the way you like to play your toon.

That is what BW needs to change, make every spec viable for all classes.
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ShadowMudkip's Avatar


ShadowMudkip
08.01.2012 , 10:05 AM | #64
Quote: Originally Posted by Werdan View Post
Armor pen, in and of itself, isn't enough. Even going from 9-20% would only net about a 3% damage boost in total. IMO the spec isn't all that terrible save for some odd skills that could be moved around (to other trees perhaps) and others that need to be reworked. Some examples could be:

-Deception is a fairly "speedy" spec. I'd like to see the Force Speed skills from Lightning Recovery and Disjunction moved over from the Darkness tree to reinforce that sense of speed.

-Insulation needs a buff period. Enough to get us to ~30% damage reduction before picking up Sith Defiance. For an off tank we are extremely squishy. My Mercenary can probably off tank better than Deception spec and he has 31ish% in heavy armor.

-Duplicity needs a total overhaul. First off, the proc chance could use a boost to perhaps 15/30/45%. Secondly, instead of the proc giving half cost and 50% armor pen on the next Maul, change it so that it's good for EVERY Maul used within the proc timer (currently 10s). Reduce the proc duration to 6-7.5s and keep the time between procs at 10s.

-Along those same lines, it would be nice to have a skill that gives a chance to remove the directional requirement for Maul for a short period. More on this later.

-Darkswell and Deceptive power can probably be combined into one skill for the same cost. If made into a 2pt skill have it also increase Dark Embrace to last 8-9s.

-Saber Conduit has a pretty hefty price for a mediocre skill. 100% chance to gain force on an attack that has a 25% proc chance and only every 10s. Make this a 2 point skill (50/100% chance) and reduce the time between procs to every 6s.

-Entropic Field...what a waste of points IMO. What makes it worse is that it's so high up the tree. I'd just as soon trade this for Unearthed Knowledge from the Madness tree which fits better with Deception style of play (mostly melee).

-Resourcefulness just doesn't make any sense for Deception. Lacerate is used more in Darkness spec (to proc Energize) and Overcharge Saber (OS) still relies on Surging Charge low proc rate. I'd like to see this changed to a 5/10 point reduction for Maul and probably a better OS buff. A nice buff would be to remove the directional requirement of Maul while OS is active but remove the CD reduction of OS.

-Static Charge needs to have its description fixed as it does not increase Surging Charge damage (it increases Discharge damage while in the SC stance). If you were looking to buff it I'd include SC damage as well. Otherwise it's a very good skill.

-Low Slash and Voltaic Slash aren't bad but they are weapon damage. Perhaps modify the crit multiplier behind the scenes to try and increase crit damage or make it a skill along the lines of Induction and Claws of Decay (Madness tree).

If beggars were choosers I'd want it all. I know it's not goign to happen, but even a few of the above would be nice to see.
Very good suggestions. I think BW should take entropic field and change it so it increases crit chance by 5/10%. It would be far up enought to keep it out of the hands of darkness and if madness people want to make a weak hybrid build by sacrificing most of their abilities for the extra 10% so be it. Nice changes. But and the maul proc might want to be up higher or darkness tanks in pvp will take advantage and then we will be fotm.....again
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Werdan's Avatar


Werdan
08.01.2012 , 10:19 AM | #65
Quote: Originally Posted by ShadowMudkip View Post
Very good suggestions. I think BW should take entropic field and change it so it increases crit chance by 5/10%. It would be far up enought to keep it out of the hands of darkness and if madness people want to make a weak hybrid build by sacrificing most of their abilities for the extra 10% so be it. Nice changes. But and the maul proc might want to be up higher or darkness tanks in pvp will take advantage and then we will be fotm.....again
TY and yes I should have mentioned that the Maul proc changes should be higher up with a change like this.
TRACE
THUNDERHIPS
ISHKA
BRUTALIZE

ProKsnNwk's Avatar


ProKsnNwk
08.05.2012 , 07:40 AM | #66
Quote: Originally Posted by Nosduh View Post
All assassin dps is bad? No. Survivability is a bit low, that I agree with. DECEPTION DPS is terrible. arguably the worst spec for dps inthe game; however, madness is quite powerful. I consistently pull numbers upwards of 1400 and since I got my main hand and all BiS I'm pushing 1500 on most fights in HM EC and if I do something like Nightmare Karagga on weekends I push 1800. Is this as much as marauders or snipers? No, it's not, but it is close. And not to mention madness is INCREDIBLY powerful in pvp. Consistent damage and your DoTs heal you for 2% every time they crit? It's not as weak as the people that cant play it say it to be.
Yes, but Deception is also a DPS spec, but it lack a PVE abilities, that f. example MArauder has.
To boost Marauders abilites also works for PVP!!!!!!!!!!

Deception needs a Survivability buff both in PVP and PVE!!!!!!

PVP - Deception is TO SQUISHY!!!!
Make something like cleaning the DoTs with Force Cloak, etc....

PVE - Lack of utility abilities, and DPS!!!
More Force, and group abilities, for PVE!!!

Marauders have endlees Rage, and abilties which work for both PVE and PVP!!!


Marauders Cloak is SO MUCH better than Assasins!!!!
It has
- ONLY 45 SEC, CD !!!!
- 50% damage reduction!!!!
- DOES NOT BREAK ON DMG!!!!
(last 6 sec, but enough time to hide behind something,.... after that you can just use the ability that Reduc DMG for 5 sec by 99%)!!!!

Marauders:
have sustained (burst) DPS, Survivability, Leap! (12 sec cd), Utility (Group wise and 1 vs 1 wise), they have 2 stunns (aoe, choke), 1 root.

Shadows Deception:
hmm burst DPS, Squishy, Force Speed (30 sec cd) (compared to Leap it has longer CD), Utility only 1 vs 1 (no group utility), many Single Target stunns (no aoe stunns).

Marauders>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Shadow Deception
Camoflauge>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Force Cloak

ProKsnNwk's Avatar


ProKsnNwk
08.05.2012 , 07:45 AM | #67
Quote: Originally Posted by Werdan View Post
Armor pen, in and of itself, isn't enough. Even going from 9-20% would only net about a 3% damage boost in total. IMO the spec isn't all that terrible save for some odd skills that could be moved around (to other trees perhaps) and others that need to be reworked. Some examples could be:

-Deception is a fairly "speedy" spec. I'd like to see the Force Speed skills from Lightning Recovery and Disjunction moved over from the Darkness tree to reinforce that sense of speed.

-Insulation needs a buff period. Enough to get us to ~30% damage reduction before picking up Sith Defiance. For an off tank we are extremely squishy. My Mercenary can probably off tank better than Deception spec and he has 31ish% in heavy armor.

-Duplicity needs a total overhaul. First off, the proc chance could use a boost to perhaps 15/30/45%. Secondly, instead of the proc giving half cost and 50% armor pen on the next Maul, change it so that it's good for EVERY Maul used within the proc timer (currently 10s). Reduce the proc duration to 6-7.5s and keep the time between procs at 10s.

-Along those same lines, it would be nice to have a skill that gives a chance to remove the directional requirement for Maul for a short period. More on this later.

-Darkswell and Deceptive power can probably be combined into one skill for the same cost. If made into a 2pt skill have it also increase Dark Embrace to last 8-9s.

-Saber Conduit has a pretty hefty price for a mediocre skill. 100% chance to gain force on an attack that has a 25% proc chance and only every 10s. Make this a 2 point skill (50/100% chance) and reduce the time between procs to every 6s.

-Entropic Field...what a waste of points IMO. What makes it worse is that it's so high up the tree. I'd just as soon trade this for Unearthed Knowledge from the Madness tree which fits better with Deception style of play (mostly melee).

-Resourcefulness just doesn't make any sense for Deception. Lacerate is used more in Darkness spec (to proc Energize) and Overcharge Saber (OS) still relies on Surging Charge low proc rate. I'd like to see this changed to a 5/10 point reduction for Maul and probably a better OS buff. A nice buff would be to remove the directional requirement of Maul while OS is active but remove the CD reduction of OS.

-Static Charge needs to have its description fixed as it does not increase Surging Charge damage (it increases Discharge damage while in the SC stance). If you were looking to buff it I'd include SC damage as well. Otherwise it's a very good skill.

-Low Slash and Voltaic Slash aren't bad but they are weapon damage. Perhaps modify the crit multiplier behind the scenes to try and increase crit damage or make it a skill along the lines of Induction and Claws of Decay (Madness tree).

If beggars were choosers I'd want it all. I know it's not goign to happen, but even a few of the above would be nice to see.
I think that your idea is awesome!!!

spond's Avatar


spond
08.08.2012 , 03:41 PM | #68
It's funny, I've taken a couple month hiatus from this game (4) because of this issue. This is the spec I want to play, yet it just doesn't seem worth it.

I hope something happens soon. But with everything that's going on, maybe I just need to try a different class and get over it.

Ravand's Avatar


Ravand
08.21.2012 , 07:19 AM | #69
Quote: Originally Posted by Blyter View Post
Okay lets get a few things straight here, Marauders are a pure DPS class. They have only DPS specs. Only one of their specs pulls really high dps in comparison to everything else.

Your playing the weakest PvE spec, and asking for buffs. Really? Learn to play Madness if you want maximum PvE DPS. Deception isn't designed for that.

A Marauder should do more DPS then you, it's all he's got. He can't taunt and offtank, he can't stealth resurrect. He just stands there an deals damage.

You want all the versatility that Assassin brings, and the highest DPS available?

Our DPS is right in line with all other hybrids(Sorcs/Mercs/Ops) etc. If your getting outdps'd by everyone, the issue lies between the chair and the computer not the class.
Ok lets get ready for some troll bashing.

First of all, DPS spec compared with DPS spec They should be equal. Stupid arguments like You have tank spec so you should not do as much damage are invalid.
You Join a raid as DPS, people expect you to DPS.

Secondly, marauders have way more utility in raids than a DPS assassin. Great Group DPS buffs greater survivability. For real now... Mr Trolly You think a DPS spec assassin will taunt and off tank ? what are you smoking ?

Lastly Deception is not a hybrid DPS spec. Its a pure DPS spec, and if you parse you will see that it does roughly equal damage to madness. +-2%
( opposed to Assassin DPS vs Bounty hunter or marauder DPS difference of 30-50% )

I don't believe for a second, that your main is an assassin, most likely you are a kid, who thinks buffing this class will harm him in some way.

spond's Avatar


spond
08.21.2012 , 02:49 PM | #70
Quote: Originally Posted by Ravand View Post
Ok lets get ready for some troll bashing.

First of all, DPS spec compared with DPS spec They should be equal. Stupid arguments like You have tank spec so you should not do as much damage are invalid.
You Join a raid as DPS, people expect you to DPS.

Secondly, marauders have way more utility in raids than a DPS assassin. Great Group DPS buffs greater survivability. For real now... Mr Trolly You think a DPS spec assassin will taunt and off tank ? what are you smoking ?

Lastly Deception is not a hybrid DPS spec. Its a pure DPS spec, and if you parse you will see that it does roughly equal damage to madness. +-2%
( opposed to Assassin DPS vs Bounty hunter or marauder DPS difference of 30-50% )

I don't believe for a second, that your main is an assassin, most likely you are a kid, who thinks buffing this class will harm him in some way.
Wow, my main is a Sith Assassin Dec spec and it's an optimized (TESTED) build and there is NO way this class is somehow more versatile than a marauder. The only advantage a deception spec has over anyone else...... wait, wait, at least one other class has a unique trait of the assassin less all it's weakness'.

I only play this as my main because I want too. If I want to DPS and wreak things I use my Operative Sniper. If I want to tank, I use my Jug. Each perform the role far more effectively than the assassin (maybe darkness can hold its own on offtanking). The fact is, this class needs to have something changed for the better before people stop groaning when they see you enter the group.

The one positive the Dec spec assassin had was open world PVP raids with a bunch of other assassins. Group gank without anyone seeing you coming; however, this isn't really viable right now.

My personal suggestion for a buff would not be a very tough thing to do and would keep this class balanced:
- Reduce cooldown on Blackout by 20 - 30%
- Reduce cooldown on Force Cloak by 50% (maybe even more)

Why - you become the hit and run class you were supposed to and if you know how to use blackout, it solves most of the DPS issues.