- There has been much talk about how TTK works and alot of confusion and frustration on its mechanics.

First of let me start by saying TTK is a system more complex than everyone thinks it is and game designers

and players should know its very very hard to perfect in any MMO. With that said I will discuss the role of

a TTK system and its concern to Advanced Classes, particularly pure damage ACs.

 

- Second, the TTK system is often misconstrued and interpreted as simply lower than previously expected. This

results in people making claims such as, "I am dying too fast, help". At this point, the claim that TTK is

too low is biased accordingly and people place blame on the most attractive thing they see (pure damage

roles such as Mar/Sent or Snip/Guns). Making these claims without informative knowledge on other AC roles

(Healers/Tanks and Hybrids) is what seems to be the case for the general population in these forums. Note

that TTK is a dynamic system that encompasses HEALER/TANK/PURE DAMAGE roles as well as in-game

mechanics/situations.

 

- Moving on point I will start with Healer ACs. From a healer perspective 1.2 has changed to attune itself

closer in line to other AC roles (Tank and pure Damage). Before 1.2 there were cases of healers being able

to heal themselves to the point of fulfilling a tank AC role (e.g. Commandos/Mercs who could outheal the

brunt of the damage from 3 people) and in other cases beating the damage AC roles in a number race (e.g.

sorcs/sages in a combined effort doing 1.5x more healing output in comparison to damage output). In 1.2

this was addresssed with the increase in PvP damage expertise and the pure damage AC roles (Mar/Sent or

Snip/Gunsling) that dealt it.

 

- From a tank perspective 1.2 has given more importance to tanks. With the necessary decreased healing

output of 1.2 it gives importance to a Tank's role in the TTK system. As mentioned above healers now need

to be able to survive an assault from an array of pure damage AC roles and tank ACs while healing other

party members. This is where tank AC roles come into place. They can absorb the damage dealt to healing ACs

all the while doing some damage themselves. Now to make a comparison before 1.2, tank ACs remained

relatively the same with the exception of a boost in damage reduction. This resulted in tank ACs being able

to do moderate amount of damage WHILE surviving alot longer than pure damage ACs. 1.2 fixed this with the

expertise changes in pvp damage reduction, bringing it closer in line with pure damage roles so that they

may be able to compete as well.

 

- Before I discuss pure damage roles, let's take a look at hybrid ACs and their role pre 1.2. Before 1.2

hybrid classes reigned over others in importance to pure ACs. If you take a look at the general discussion

of hybrid specc'ing, the PvP game designers wanted to take out the prominence of hybrid specs as it allowed

more benefits in comparison to pure damage/healing/tanking ACs. For example, hybrid ACs would be able to

tank and produce a sizeable amount of damage, eliminating the need for pure damage ACs

(Tanksins/Tanksdows). Similar to this was the ability for a hybrid AC to heal and produce as well a

moderate amount of damage (Sorcs/Sages). The disparity in numbers was shocking enough that the game

designers felt it would detiorate the role of any pure class and a surge of hybrid ACs would be rolled

(Sorcs/sagees). I myself would see a pure DPS class do #1 in damage (as expected) and right below a hybrid

AC at #2, whilst at the same time healing as much as he/she DPS'd. After 1.2 the line between the AC roles

were delineated so that hybrids were not viable. But I still may be wrong on some ACs

What do all these roles have to do with TTK, 1.1, and 1.2?

 

- Before I discuss the main point of this post regarding pure damage ACs, I will point out the complexity of

TTK in MMOs as it refers to tanking/healing/damaging roles. I would like to bring about an example a

guildie of mine made. In a TTK system a tank guarding a target has absorbed 50% of the targets damage

received. Great, the role of the tank was fulfilled as he did his part protecting his friend.

Or a healer has healed his allies' health from 20 to 50% max health. Great, the healer fulfilled his role

in keeping his allies' alive. But wait what about the role of a DMG class? If I took the target out from 80

to 20% max health this does not matter. Why? The target is not dead. And my role? Not fulfilled as my team

has to worry about more obstacles to deal with (more healing and more protecting). So what does this have

to do with the TTK system? Alot. Since let's say we increase the TTK by double. Who is primarily affected

in this system? The pure damage roles. Why you say?

 

- Let's take a look at the previous examples and think, the penalty is too great if a damage role did not

take out a target. This causes a big rift and places more benefits to classes that excel in more than one

role, as certain classes did - tanks can both damage/protect, healers can damage/heal. Pure damage classes

can only damage. This system would be quite unfair wouldn't it? If you compare the damage role and how it

interacts with the TTK system alongside the other two roles it serves only a sole purpose. Why not make its

role more relevant? 1.2 is not a perfect solution but did so and as said before made clear the roles of

pure damage ACs to healing and tank ACs. This is where the complaints of other ACs come in to (Mar/Sent or

Snip/Gunsling), as before hybrid ACs were more viable (Mercs/Comms), (Juggs/Guards), (Sages/Sorcs),

(Sins/Sdows).

 

- So lets discuss pure damage ACs. Before 1.2 only 1 of the two pure damage ACs were viable and even then

some hybrid ACs were beating them out in utility and usefullness in a TTK system. What's the point of a

pure damage AC if not to have some damage output? Sure you would see some (Mar/Sent or Snip/Gunsling)

outdamaging other ACs in terms of numbers here and there but what good would that be in PvP if a damage

role couldnt stop and heal themselves or someone else in PvP. Or how about if a pure damage role took they

same amount of damage as some tank ACs did and be able to protect/taunt targets? In pre 1.2, Mars/Sents had

the same defensive CDs as they do now, and their survivability was the same as it is then than it is now

(1.2). However the changes that everyone is complaining about is the (Mar/Sent or Snip/Gunsling) viability

in being able to outdamage a AC that can spec into two roles (tank/dmg, heal/dmg). I am not saying that ACs

should all do the same damage if specc'd according to a AC role, but what I am saying is that a TTK system

should in fact bring in line balance for a pure damage/tank/healing AC. In other words a pure damage AC

such as (Mar/Sent or Snip/Gunsling) should be able to fulfil their role better than other ACs who have an

option to choose another AC role (tank/healer).

 

- The current TTK system as it stands isn't perfect and there are AC differences that make each unique to a

particular role but to complain that one role is more viable than the others is a simple mistake. If people

stopped complaining and brought all AC roles in a warzone and play them well they would notice the

importance of each role in TTK. The fact that BW made the pure damage AC classes more viable 1.2 is not a

reason to complain about the AC at all. The complaints should be made first if they know full well the

other AC roles (tank/healers) are lagging behind severely.It's funny even to make remarks such as people

suggesting that a warzone composed of one AC role of a Marauder/Sentinel. They would surely pay the price

if they went up against a well balanced group of tanks/healers/damage ACs. If you notice premades aren't

just composed of 1 or even 2 roles, but rather most successful premades encompass all AC roles as it stands

better in a TTK system.

You know I agree. For all the QQing and as much as I hate to sound cliche, but it usually is a l2p scenario, or knowing which classes your particular AC is vulnerable to. There is no 'uber' class that can do-all, be-all. WZ's are more about teamwork than just crushing the other side and if people play together instead of choosing to solo the entire time, then its an easy win.

tldr.

Thank you.....just thank you explained the TTK system so succinctly. Now if only your wisdom could be implanted in the heads of all those who clamour so loudly on the forums about mara / sents.

 

Sadly I think those with the loudest voices may only read a line or two.

Sents are just taking everyone by surprise now.

 

I can survive against sentinels on my healer sage until my force runs out.

 

Well reasoned and thoughtful post, but certain hybrid acs (notably crapmando/merc) are faring very poorly now.

Blah blah blah, TTK is too low currently. 2 good DPS shouldn't be able to plow through a guarded healer like they were butter and have them dead before the root breaks. Currently warhero Marauders and snipers can have people dead in 4 global cooldowns. That's 2 gcd if there are two of them, and 3-4 together if the target is guarded and being healed.

 

It removes all skill from the game! It was the same problem back in January, where you had overpowered combinations that were able to 2 shot people.

 

Further, its utterly ridiculous that pure tank specs are dying in seconds to the same dps. If you want to make pure healers or dps squishy, fine, but main tanks are supposed to have some ability to take and mitigate damage, and that is not happening right now. They are dying almost as fast as everyone else.

 

Atm healing is approximately equal to damage (eg a good healer outputs about the same as a good dps to within 5% or so). Which makes no sense at all. There is no point to having the healer then. They are supposed to be able to outheal the net total damage of a single dps in a wz (worse that dps is often single target, whereas healing is typically benefiting from aoes relatively)

exaggerate much?

This is in addendum to what I originally posted.

 

- To clear things up the points I made about Hybrid ACs were twofold.

1) There are hybrid ACs that specialize in two skill trees (for example Madness/Lightning Sorcs).

2) There are ACs with hybrid roles, or in other words two or more roles in PvP (for example Healer/Damage, or (Tank/Damage).

 

Point 1 is emphasized in pre 1.2 concerns of devs for Hybrid specializations. Point 2 is much more complex in a TTK system as certain roles are picked by each player and is dependent on the situation (group make-up, player capability). But in addressing both points, I made the conclusion that pure PvP roles need more focus in the TTK system as before (pre 1.2).

Blah blah blah, TTK is too low currently. 2 good DPS shouldn't be able to plow through a guarded healer like they were butter and have them dead before the root breaks. Currently warhero Marauders and snipers can have people dead in 4 global cooldowns. That's 2 gcd if there are two of them, and 3-4 together if the target is guarded and being healed.

 

It removes all skill from the game! It was the same problem back in January, where you had overpowered combinations that were able to 2 shot people.

 

Further, its utterly ridiculous that pure tank specs are dying in seconds to the same dps. If you want to make pure healers or dps squishy, fine, but main tanks are supposed to have some ability to take and mitigate damage, and that is not happening right now. They are dying almost as fast as everyone else.

 

Atm healing is approximately equal to damage (eg a good healer outputs about the same as a good dps to within 5% or so). Which makes no sense at all. There is no point to having the healer then. They are supposed to be able to outheal the net total damage of a single dps in a wz (worse that dps is often single target, whereas healing is typically benefiting from aoes relatively)

 

For discussion purposes I advise you re-read what I posted in the body of my original post and not just skim through each paragraph and look at the final conclusion. The very fact that you made no attempt to even explain a TTK system and its pros/cons means you have no point to argue. Rather you to sit here and discuss a certain situation in PvP in a specific manner of the TTK system that goes along with it.

 

Well then to discuss said situation. First of all, the PvP game design is not catered to a 2v2 situation.

Secondly, the Advanced Classes you are talking about and their role in the TTK system, specifically around a 2v2 situation, is hard to expound without first asking some questions.

 

Questions like what gear were each classes using?, who got the jump first? did the healer interrupt or CC? did the tank taunt and/or CC? Simply posting that a healer gets cleaved even with protect from 100% max health to 0% max health (I'm assuming) is not a credible post. Please get your facts straight before posting such situations.

 

Here is my input on said situation. If 2 damage roles were specifically targetting me as a healer with protect, the incorrect and only outcome is me staying alive. Let me ask you a question. If there was an Arena system with 2v2 queing in it...should a healer and tank be able to survive two damage roles? If the answer is yes, then why should there be a damage role in the first place? But to bring it back to point the situation you should be addressing is how far behind do the tank and healer roles lag in comparison to damage roles? As these are more feasible in a TTK system.

Sents are just taking everyone by surprise now.

 

 

It's because pre 1.2 the class was "complete crap", "uselss", and "anyone that rolled a sent/mara should reroll to a class that can actually do something". All three of those things were said to me by guildies in the past while i tore people up, topped charts, and wrecked them in many duels.

If you notice premades aren't

just composed of 1 or even 2 roles, but rather most successful premades encompass all AC roles as it stands

better in a TTK system.

 

Warrior/Guardians are DPS spec.

Vanguards/Powertechs are DPS spec

Shadows/Assassins are the only tank spec class - even then they act as an offguard because most time they are doing their own thing (which is understandable and fine)

 

Commando/Merc healers are better tanks than most tank AC players out there

 

DPS just faceroll, they don't even have to worry about interrupts

 

But cheers for a more productive post than your everyday normal guy's nerf thread

Pure damage ACs are only Marauders/Sentinels or Snipers/Gunslingers. In the skill trees of each AC you can't find a tank or healer role in each. This is the dilemma of Pure damage ACs and currently (as most people believe) its greatest asset (as other people believe).

 

But to say damage roles just faceroll is true as well as false. True against unorganized people roaming warzones left and right just trying to 1v1 anything. False in an organized manner. If you go up against any successful premades the group composition is not only damage rolles because the TTK system is changed when you add well a played Healer or Tank role in the game situation. So what I'm assuming is that the TTK system is more favorable for those who organize themselves properly.

 

And to add to my point, I am not posting this in defense of a Marauder/Sentinel AC but rather informing people on how to address and give feasible input towards a better TTK system that is not skewed towards one role.

Insightful post OP. I applaud your efforts to educate the masses. Unfortunately, most will ignore this.

When talking about balance and what not you have to leave skill out of the equation: put a bad healer against a bad DPS or put a good healer against a good DPS, the outcome will be the same.

Pure damage ACs are only Marauders/Sentinels or Snipers/Gunslingers. In the skill trees of each AC you can't find a tank or healer role in each. This is the dilemma of Pure damage ACs and currently (as most people believe) its greatest asset (as other people believe).

 

But to say damage roles just faceroll is true as well as false. True against unorganized people roaming warzones left and right just trying to 1v1 anything. False in an organized manner. If you go up against any successful premades the group composition is not only damage rolles because the TTK system is changed when you add well a played Healer or Tank role in the game situation. So what I'm assuming is that the TTK system is more favorable for those who organize themselves properly.

 

And to add to my point, I am not posting this in defense of a Marauder/Sentinel AC but rather informing people on how to address and give feasible input towards a better TTK system that is not skewed towards one role.

 

I love posts like these.

 

Premades lay more on staying alive and taking objectives than just killing everyone and everything. They coordinate CC's, inform each other priority targets, call for help much better, pick out a straight up strategy for a warzone then just running in blindly making the games a little slower paced because it's not all 8 people being DPS on each team.

For all intents and purposes this is all a bunch of gobbledygook. Let's look at the facts.

 

Fact: The overwhelming majority of people don't run around with a calculator crunching numbers or go about writing dissertations about some PVP system in a game they just log on and play just a few hours a week. The old Everquest days are over we just have to accept it or just quit online gaming.

 

Fact: Most people just single queue and play a few matches a day. There's no point in saying "lol preform more baddie" because that's just not going to happen. Most have and will continue to single queue. It's been that way in every game I've ever played. Yea, the people who are serious will group up and roll people but let's face it, that's a marginally tiny minority of the player base.

 

Fact: People are dieing way faster than before. It can be rationalized and justified until the end of time, but it will never be accepted by most players. The average player just wants to log in, play a few matches and get their daily finished in a reasonable amount of time. The average player has no interest in dieing every 10 seconds or joining some permanent preform to win. You can call them baddies or scrubs or whatever you will but it's going to change nothing.

 

Not flaming you OP or anything I'm just saying, the way things are now just isn't acceptable to most players. You are right in many respects but most people aren't going to rationalize things and then take the steps to fix it. They will keep queuing solo, get rolled, then eventually rage quit.

Edited April 27, 2012 by CodyLundeen

Most people take a blanket approach: DPS SORC/DPS JUGG VS MARA/SNIPER. Y MY JUGG DO 5.73% LESS DMG ALL DA TIME??? Reason: Snipers/Maras can't actively heal, taunt, or guard. The best dps sorcs on my server put up well over 300k damage and 100k healing--they are solid off healers. The dps juggs on my server just spec dps and sit in tank stance with 300k damage and 100k protection. Hybrids have the versatility of two roles (even when specced for 1, the second still seeps into the class) that pures lack. This is where the extra damage and group buffs come in for pures.

For all intents and purposes this is all a bunch of gobbledygook. Let's look at the facts.

 

Fact: The overwhelming majority of people don't run around with a calculator crunching numbers or go about writing dissertations about some PVP system in a game they just log on and play just a few hours a week. The old Everquest days are over we just have to accept it or just quit online gaming.

 

Fact: Most people just single queue and play a few matches a day. There's no point in saying "lol preform more baddie" because that's just not going to happen. Most have and will continue to single queue. It's been that way in every game I've ever played. Yea, the people who are serious will group up and roll people but let's face it, that's a marginally tiny minority of the player base.

 

Fact: People are dieing way faster than before. It can be rationalized and justified until the end of time, but it will never be accepted by most players. The average player just wants to log in, play a few matches and get their daily finished in a reasonable amount of time. The average player has no interest in dieing every 10 seconds or joining some permanent preform to win. You can call them baddies or scrubs or whatever you will but it's going to change nothing.

 

Not flaming you OP or anything I'm just saying, the way things are now just isn't acceptable to most players. You are right in many respects but most people aren't going to rationalize things and then take the steps to fix it. They will keep queuing solo, get rolled, then eventually rage quit.

 

Thank you for providing a general explanation of the direction most people are going towards (whether it is true or false). However, I disagree with you when make a claim that we "either accept it or quit online gaming" all the whilst support a secondary claim that "things are not acceptable for most players". This is biased in respect to the original post that I delved into regarding TTK and pure DMG/HEAL/TANK roles. If you're going to make a claim that it is unacceptable support it better with facts other than saying most people do this or that.

 

What is true is that a general population is playing the game. And also true that a lot of people desire to single queue into warzones. What is both true and false is that things are unacceptable to the general population. You made the claim that things are unacceptable to the general population...What things?? since you're going to make a claim on a complex issue you have to care the subtle details driving each aspect of it. Don't just generally complain for the sake of complaining.

 

I'm not going to delve into the future of SWTOR TTK and PVP all I wanted was an intelligible discussion of how we can improve on the current system? But what is seems like is people complaining about things they don't understand.

 

When I get responses like this, I just shake my head because this forum is built for the SWTOR gaming population to discuss important topics.

Here is my input on said situation. If 2 damage roles were specifically targetting me as a healer with protect, the incorrect and only outcome is me staying alive. Let me ask you a question. If there was an Arena system with 2v2 queing in it...should a healer and tank be able to survive two damage roles? If the answer is yes, then why should there be a damage role in the first place? But to bring it back to point the situation you should be addressing is how far behind do the tank and healer roles lag in comparison to damage roles? As these are more feasible in a TTK system.

 

I am only talking about high level play by geared players who know what they are doing. Currently in a 2-2 situation, 2 damage roles will always beat a healer and a tank. In a 3-3 situation, 3 damage roles will beat 1 healer and 2 damage and so forth.

 

In fact, this was almost the case pre 1.2 as well. In most of the money competitions across servers (3-3, 4-4 tourneys), pure damage teams did exceptionally well (particularly those with rotating guard/taunts) it was only b/c of the great survivability of commando/merc healers that allowed them to actually contribute (smuggler and sage teams lost pretty much everytime). Further, healers typically always lose 1-1 duels. They simply can't outheal damage when they are being interupted, stunned and so forth. I bring this up, not b/c I think 1-1 has any relevance, but simply to illustrate that when 2 or 3 dps are on them, their contribution basically shrinks to nothing.

 

Look, one way or the other, healers are the primary assist train target in MMOs. They are the first targets in any wz, and if as the current game allows them to be cc'd, interupted, rooted as well as burnt down within seconds, then there is literally no point to having them present. You would be better served by having another dps present (preferably one that has cooldowns that allow them to be invulnerable for a few seconds).

 

This is of course about rated teams, and not simple pugs where no one focuses and healers are allowed to run around casting freely.

3 dps v 2 dps healer, the healer will win.

 

Tanksin healer v 2 dps healer still wins.

 

In warzones, the team with a healer wins. I dont know where you are getting this.

 

Edit: didnt read the whole post, but on my server, anyway, the triple dps teams got worked.

 

Havent had one post 1.2 though.

Edited April 28, 2012 by Superawesomerman

Got to the part about dps not fulfilling their role unless they kill their target and had to comment, if your preventing an enemy player from fulfilling his role by forcing him to kite, deal with you or heal himself rather than his team then the dps is performing his/her role.

 

The way I see it is a single dps should be able to deny their target time to perform their role by forcing evasive tactics or other means of self preservation, intervention from a teammate on either side swings the battle.

 

Teamwork, tactics a little cat and mouse and probing the enemy team for a weakpoint for me at least is always preferable to mashing buttons in a random order and watching players fall over.

Oh look, a marauder- immune to all damage, endless gap closing and roots- can take half your health with one attack, follow up with one or two hits then deadly for free wins every time.

 

TTK is a joke in this game- marauders are extremely OP in every way, and they've ruined the game. Nobody's going to stick around for this joke of a pvp system where the best classes get buffed and the worst nerfed.

Wall of text crits you for 4500.

You are affected by Fleschette Round.

For all intents and purposes this is all a bunch of gobbledygook. Let's look at the facts.

 

Fact: The overwhelming majority of people don't run around with a calculator crunching numbers or go about writing dissertations about some PVP system in a game they just log on and play just a few hours a week. The old Everquest days are over we just have to accept it or just quit online gaming.

 

Fact: Most people just single queue and play a few matches a day. There's no point in saying "lol preform more baddie" because that's just not going to happen. Most have and will continue to single queue. It's been that way in every game I've ever played. Yea, the people who are serious will group up and roll people but let's face it, that's a marginally tiny minority of the player base.

 

Fact: People are dieing way faster than before. It can be rationalized and justified until the end of time, but it will never be accepted by most players. The average player just wants to log in, play a few matches and get their daily finished in a reasonable amount of time. The average player has no interest in dieing every 10 seconds or joining some permanent preform to win. You can call them baddies or scrubs or whatever you will but it's going to change nothing.

 

Not flaming you OP or anything I'm just saying, the way things are now just isn't acceptable to most players. You are right in many respects but most people aren't going to rationalize things and then take the steps to fix it. They will keep queuing solo, get rolled, then eventually rage quit.

 

ummm none of these are facts.....just assumptions and what do they say about making assumptions?

 

you post should look like this

 

assumption: The overwhelming majority of people don't run around with a calculator crunching numbers or go about writing dissertations about some PVP system in a game they just log on and play just a few hours a week. The old Everquest days are over we just have to accept it or just quit online gaming.

 

assumption: Most people just single queue and play a few matches a day. There's no point in saying "lol preform more baddie" because that's just not going to happen. Most have and will continue to single queue. It's been that way in every game I've ever played. Yea, the people who are serious will group up and roll people but let's face it, that's a marginally tiny minority of the player base.

 

assumption: People are dieing way faster than before. It can be rationalized and justified until the end of time, but it will never be accepted by most players. The average player just wants to log in, play a few matches and get their daily finished in a reasonable amount of time. The average player has no interest in dieing every 10 seconds or joining some permanent preform to win. You can call them baddies or scrubs or whatever you will but it's going to change nothing.

 

see then we could give it the amount of consideration it truly deserves.

Edited April 28, 2012 by Odahviin

My favorite part is he's trying to lump Snipers and GS's in with Marauders and Sents and say "Don't nerf Marauders/Sent"...

 

TTK is to low in this game, unless you play a class like a marauder/sent, which survives just fine..