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Armor Dyes?


iDiggory's Avatar


iDiggory
04.27.2012 , 09:26 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Leyv View Post
which doesnt help when you're wearing a set...ooo i can make all my troopers armour match my black rakatta chest! oh wait..it already does

the ability to actually change that chest's colour is what would be nice , unification was just the lazy "sod it thats good enough" way out
You know, instead of being a jerk in your reply, you could take a moment to realize that the poster you are responding to wasn't making any comment about the unify colors option with regard to dyes, he was helping a previous poster who specifically mentioned that she hated when she had gear that clashed. You can infer from this that she likely missed the patch note about the unify colors option being implemented.

He never once said anything remotely close to the option with regards to dyes. He was being helping someone else understand what they can do now.


As for the topic of dyes, I'm indifferent. The Unify Colors option actually was, largely, enough for me. Of course, that's not reason to say that it should not be available. Ultimately, I think dyes might actually be worse for the game (but not necessarily enough to warrant keeping them out, if players really desire them).

I think there are a few things that need to be considered:
1. Dyes were partly an answer to two problems in many games they were implemented for. Yes, the ability to choose your character's color was a motivation as well. But they were primarily implemented to solve the problem of gear clashing and lack of variety. While leveling, you'd use whatever came along. If the best was hot pink pants with a lime green top, then that's what you wore. Dyes helped remedy that. When you reached endgame, everyone was using the same powerful items (or worse, sets), so this again added variety.

This isn't a problem in TOR. The Unify colors option has effectively removed clashing as an issue. And as modding is now required for optimal stats, players are free to choose their pieces from a huge variety of item models. The issues that led to the implementation of dyes just don't exist in TOR. As mentioned earlier, that doesn't mean they can't consider the desire of the community as a sufficient motivation--all I'm doing here is pointing out why "Well <insert game> had them!" is not a convincing argument. It would be better to say "Well, the implementation of dyes into <insert game> gave me the ability to <action> that is missing from TOR and meaningfully affects my enjoyment of the game."

2. Dyes would have a meaningful (detrimental) impact on the capability of crew skills, which 1.2 just went to great lengths to make more valuable. Modifiable items are now an actual commodity, particularly in their crit forms. The primary money-making ability of the armor-crafting skills is from the creation of augments and these modifiable items.

As of right now, the most important craftable items are the chest pieces. These are what players care the most for outright, as most of your attention is going to be focused there while playing. Right now, many chest skins have multiple versions that are only differentiated by color scheme. In virtue of the fact that there are people who will desire more than one of these items, that increases the market (as, if players freely chose the color, they'd only ever have reason to buy one of these items). The unify colors options has effectively made chest pieces the only way for crafters to economically gain from that diversity.

These schematics are also selling for quite a bit of money--eliminating their distinct value that's solely based on their color would be a pretty big loss for those investments.

And lets not forget that there are still modifiable items that actually have requirements like valor rank, making the color a prestige note.

3. Dyes for other games were dealing with much, much simpler gear pieces. Right now, the only color-swapping gear is for the more, well, "basic" gear pieces. Most of them aren't nearly as elaborate as many chest pieces are. For instance, the robe my Jedi Knight is wearing right now has 4 different color fabrics, plus different colors in its detailing and embroidery. Making that compatible with dyes will be very difficult. The unify colors feature tends to just sorta "wash" the item in that color, which works because they aren't focal points or covered in fine details. It will be much, much harder to implement with chest pieces. Even if the dye just changed the "primary" color (the one used to judge what colors the other gear should take when unified), it might very well end up looking funky. The chest pieces in EQ2 weren't nearly so complex.

4. Finally, let's just get down to it and ask if this is something the player base, as a whole, really wants. I'm strongly inclined to imagine that it does not. It is certainly a subset of the player base that cared about potential clashing enough to make it an issue they wanted addressed quickly (meaning, before other major complaints).

I'm very strongly inclined to say that the Unify Colors option was exactly what most people wanted. It's simple to use and requires no micro-management at all. There's no dye shopping, no need to plan out the colors and accents of your outfit. You just press a button, and your colors are all cohesive. Better yet, you switch a chest piece to a different color, press the button, and they are again cohesive.

I know this doesn't help the group who does want control of those colors (particularly the ability to freely choose their chest color), but I do think that we are currently in the best state for everyone. It's not too much busywork or planning, it allows for a ton of customization, and you always match. Yeah, you don't have a ton of color options per skin, but you DO have them. And you're only going to gain more with time.

So yeah, I'm inclined to say it would hurt the game. Maybe not a ton--maybe giving the relevant dyes to SW/AM might boost their sales, but overall I'm expecting it to be less well-received by more players than the UC option is.

lightSaberAddiCt's Avatar


lightSaberAddiCt
04.27.2012 , 04:42 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by iDiggory View Post
You know, instead of being a jerk in your reply, you could take a moment to realize that the poster you are responding to wasn't making any comment about the unify colors option with regard to dyes, he was helping a previous poster who specifically mentioned that she hated when she had gear that clashed. You can infer from this that she likely missed the patch note about the unify colors option being implemented.

He never once said anything remotely close to the option with regards to dyes. He was being helping someone else understand what they can do now.
Nice to see that someone is actually providing a decent discussion rather then just trying to burn someone.

Though I tend to disagree a little, I think color changes would help the game by showing each players individuality. It would be cool to see what combinations they came up with. Although I think the unify colors is a good start, I hope they dedicate a little more time to offering some more customization to armor colors (though I think it should really be on the bottom of the list under fixing the bugs etc).

Valethar's Avatar


Valethar
04.27.2012 , 09:25 PM | #13
Unify was NOT what most people wanted. From the start of Beta, people have been asking for an armor dye system. Instead,BW took the lazy way out and forced this ridiculously fail mechanic on us rather than take the time to code a proper system.

In fact, the first time they introduced it, it sucked so bad they took it out and 'upgraded' it to what we see now. I haven't noticed a difference. It still looks like crap, and no one I know actually likes it.
"Due to the massive loss of subscribers in our flagship title, we decided to cancel Blizzcon this year, because frankly, we don't think there's anyone left who would show up."

Sithhelmet's Avatar


Sithhelmet
04.27.2012 , 09:31 PM | #14
I hate (I'm lying, I LOVE) to be a pessimist, but does it really matter what color your potato sack armor is?

Finduilose's Avatar


Finduilose
05.03.2012 , 01:59 PM | #15
Yes it does! Why do I say that, because when your Rp'ing and someone walks right up to you and has the same exact outfit that you have on, it kind of makes it hard to take anyone really serious. It sucks not being about to actually change the color of our armor, not to mention I really think they need to put a type of "street" clothes into the game and be able to change the color of that. I personally don't like looking the exact same way someone else does. It's annoying as H3LL!!!

Quote: Originally Posted by Sithhelmet View Post
I hate (I'm lying, I LOVE) to be a pessimist, but does it really matter what color your potato sack armor is?

psandak's Avatar


psandak
05.03.2012 , 03:08 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by iDiggory View Post
You know, instead of being a jerk in your reply, you could take a moment to realize that the poster you are responding to wasn't making any comment about the unify colors option with regard to dyes, he was helping a previous poster who specifically mentioned that she hated when she had gear that clashed. You can infer from this that she likely missed the patch note about the unify colors option being implemented.

He never once said anything remotely close to the option with regards to dyes. He was being helping someone else understand what they can do now.


As for the topic of dyes, I'm indifferent. The Unify Colors option actually was, largely, enough for me. Of course, that's not reason to say that it should not be available. Ultimately, I think dyes might actually be worse for the game (but not necessarily enough to warrant keeping them out, if players really desire them).

I think there are a few things that need to be considered:
1. Dyes were partly an answer to two problems in many games they were implemented for. Yes, the ability to choose your character's color was a motivation as well. But they were primarily implemented to solve the problem of gear clashing and lack of variety. While leveling, you'd use whatever came along. If the best was hot pink pants with a lime green top, then that's what you wore. Dyes helped remedy that. When you reached endgame, everyone was using the same powerful items (or worse, sets), so this again added variety.

This isn't a problem in TOR. The Unify colors option has effectively removed clashing as an issue. And as modding is now required for optimal stats, players are free to choose their pieces from a huge variety of item models. The issues that led to the implementation of dyes just don't exist in TOR. As mentioned earlier, that doesn't mean they can't consider the desire of the community as a sufficient motivation--all I'm doing here is pointing out why "Well <insert game> had them!" is not a convincing argument. It would be better to say "Well, the implementation of dyes into <insert game> gave me the ability to <action> that is missing from TOR and meaningfully affects my enjoyment of the game."

2. Dyes would have a meaningful (detrimental) impact on the capability of crew skills, which 1.2 just went to great lengths to make more valuable. Modifiable items are now an actual commodity, particularly in their crit forms. The primary money-making ability of the armor-crafting skills is from the creation of augments and these modifiable items.

As of right now, the most important craftable items are the chest pieces. These are what players care the most for outright, as most of your attention is going to be focused there while playing. Right now, many chest skins have multiple versions that are only differentiated by color scheme. In virtue of the fact that there are people who will desire more than one of these items, that increases the market (as, if players freely chose the color, they'd only ever have reason to buy one of these items). The unify colors options has effectively made chest pieces the only way for crafters to economically gain from that diversity.

These schematics are also selling for quite a bit of money--eliminating their distinct value that's solely based on their color would be a pretty big loss for those investments.

And lets not forget that there are still modifiable items that actually have requirements like valor rank, making the color a prestige note.

3. Dyes for other games were dealing with much, much simpler gear pieces. Right now, the only color-swapping gear is for the more, well, "basic" gear pieces. Most of them aren't nearly as elaborate as many chest pieces are. For instance, the robe my Jedi Knight is wearing right now has 4 different color fabrics, plus different colors in its detailing and embroidery. Making that compatible with dyes will be very difficult. The unify colors feature tends to just sorta "wash" the item in that color, which works because they aren't focal points or covered in fine details. It will be much, much harder to implement with chest pieces. Even if the dye just changed the "primary" color (the one used to judge what colors the other gear should take when unified), it might very well end up looking funky. The chest pieces in EQ2 weren't nearly so complex.

4. Finally, let's just get down to it and ask if this is something the player base, as a whole, really wants. I'm strongly inclined to imagine that it does not. It is certainly a subset of the player base that cared about potential clashing enough to make it an issue they wanted addressed quickly (meaning, before other major complaints).

I'm very strongly inclined to say that the Unify Colors option was exactly what most people wanted. It's simple to use and requires no micro-management at all. There's no dye shopping, no need to plan out the colors and accents of your outfit. You just press a button, and your colors are all cohesive. Better yet, you switch a chest piece to a different color, press the button, and they are again cohesive.

I know this doesn't help the group who does want control of those colors (particularly the ability to freely choose their chest color), but I do think that we are currently in the best state for everyone. It's not too much busywork or planning, it allows for a ton of customization, and you always match. Yeah, you don't have a ton of color options per skin, but you DO have them. And you're only going to gain more with time.

So yeah, I'm inclined to say it would hurt the game. Maybe not a ton--maybe giving the relevant dyes to SW/AM might boost their sales, but overall I'm expecting it to be less well-received by more players than the UC option is.
iDiggory has broken down the issues with a dye system in THIS game very well. Dye systems may have worked well in other games, but it will not work in this one.

I agree with everything he says.

psandak's Avatar


psandak
05.03.2012 , 03:19 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Finduilose View Post
Yes it does! Why do I say that, because when your Rp'ing and someone walks right up to you and has the same exact outfit that you have on, it kind of makes it hard to take anyone really serious. It sucks not being about to actually change the color of our armor, not to mention I really think they need to put a type of "street" clothes into the game and be able to change the color of that. I personally don't like looking the exact same way someone else does. It's annoying as H3LL!!!
The problem is that in my experiences with dye systems it rarely works out the way you hope.

In EQ1, I was playing that game when the dye system launched. Do you know how many characters were all black, or white or red? I would sell cleric buffs in Plane of Knowledge and there was once TEN characters all in black in line.

And I got one better. My three friends and I saw this trend and decided to "go rainbow". every piece of equipment we wore was a different color. And we even worked it out so that no one piece amongst ourselves was the same color (one character had blue chest another had a yellow chest a third had red and the fourth had green). It was god awful looking but we definitely stood out .

Now because we were only four (BTW we had the perfect group setup - warrior (tank), cleric (heal), enchanter (slow and CC) and druid (DPS and CC) and were all in a hardcore raiding guild. So we could bring any two shlubs who wanted a group with us) and the standard group for EQ1 was six we would bring in random players to fill our group. Eventually enough players saw us and wanted to be "different" than everyone else, that total strangers started copying what my friends and I had done to actually be different. Eventually our attempt to be different failed.

My point is, you would be amazed how often different people have the same tastes.

FalcoLombardi's Avatar


FalcoLombardi
05.03.2012 , 03:26 PM | #18
I want Guild Wars 2 dye system. You start out with like 20 colors I think you can choose from, and 3 slots on each piece of armor to dye. As you're adventuring you can loot colorful dye seeds, which can be brought to some trader and you get a random dye color. There's over 400 colors in all
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psandak's Avatar


psandak
05.03.2012 , 03:47 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by FalcoLombardi View Post
I want Guild Wars 2 dye system. You start out with like 20 colors I think you can choose from, and 3 slots on each piece of armor to dye. As you're adventuring you can loot colorful dye seeds, which can be brought to some trader and you get a random dye color. There's over 400 colors in all
Problem is that GW2's system is in the original code; they planned for it, probably since day one of development. Implementing something like that in an existing system is all but impossible; it is EXTREMELY impractical.

Lysico's Avatar


Lysico
05.03.2012 , 04:34 PM | #20
Dyes are being added to the biochem crewskill in upcoming patch (not 1.3 though)