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Sage/Sorc Healer PvE Force Regain

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Sage/Sorc Healer PvE Force Regain

Xaearth's Avatar

04.25.2012 , 05:26 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Jedi_Kaysha View Post
On the topic of healing: the main reason people say that Healing Rotations are a silly concept is because healing is needed when it's needed, where it's needed. You can cook up all kinds of healing rotations, but in the end the only thing that matters is if you achieve the amount of HPS that is needed to offset the encounter's DPS (including all forms of damage done to the party during it). Based on those requirements, a healer has to be flexible and adaptive, to squeeze the most out of the resources available to make it till the end of the encounter. Those are parameters that cannot easily be caught in any rotation or formula - hence, people generally state that healing rotations are useless as they completely ignore situational and circumstantial effects which are present in any encounter.
You clearly haven't played as an Op/Scoundrel healer, and, if the 1.2 nerfs are any indication, it's painfully obvious to the majority of the healer community that rotational healing is exactly where the devs want this game.

Metrics aren't too good at measuring "flexible and adaptive" play, unfortunately.
"The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones;
So let it be with BioWare."
~ SWTOR Update 1.2: Legacy

Aurojiin's Avatar

04.25.2012 , 05:46 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Jedi_Kaysha View Post
Essentially, it's still the double-dipping bug that's present. The channeled HoT only eats the buff at the very end (like it did pre-patch) so if you cast fast enough, you can make it affect 2 spells instead of 1.

It's funny that they put so much effort into destroying the bug in this specific case, but not consider the general mechanic behind it that's causing it. For instance, Troopers can also abuse a double-dipping bug with Reserve Power Cell and I am sure there are more instances where it applies.
Your description of the double-dipping bug is correct.

This is not said bug. I must make the disclaimer that I haven't logged on *today*, so I suppose there is always the possibility of some server-side ninja change, but still. The channel does not eat the buff *at all*. You can cast HT/Innervate, sit around, twiddle your thumbs for a GCD, and Force Bending/Conveyance will still be there (unless it expires, obviously).

XtremJedi's Avatar

04.26.2012 , 01:32 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Jedi_Kaysha View Post
On the topic of healing: the main reason people say that Healing Rotations are a silly concept is because healing is needed when it's needed, where it's needed.
The rotation was designed on request, but it's a good rotation. If you add in the extra Main Heal towards the end of it, then you have what a lot of the guides actually recommend anyway - bubble tank, focus on AoE for healing and regen, Channel as your main heal, HoT for a small fast heal/AC buff for tank and the main heal as your big basher. The rotation has all of those elements with most of them on or near CD (or losss of immunity for the bubble).

The real point of the rotation is for it to act as a Reference Point. That is, you can design your decision making around the basic skeleton of the rotation. And of course you'll come away from the rotation as situations require it... but then you know that returning to it after the situation is over will be a steady state and balance your play again. The rotation is basically the best healing you can do with a neutral force drain.

You can happily add a Cleanse in for fights that require it, substituting it for one of the HoTs and in a free GCD for example. Or you could cast less than is in the rotation, leaving more Free GCDs to make more force back. Or add a Main Heal as I said, taking into account the drop in force as you do so. Or whatever... but the basic rotation is the best steady-state we've come up with so far and so represents a great skeleton on which you can flesh out your healing tactics.

For modelling you also need a Burst Healing rotation, that you can switch on when needed. That's where the variety will tend to really make itself most felt. But even then, you could probably choose one that is going to be your go-to burst healing approach. My own burst heal approach after 1.2 came out was Bubble > HoT > Channel, which is incidentally pretty much built into the rotation. Others might prefer HoT > Fast Heal or whatever.

People who create simulations for these games, include the option for choosing which burst healing method to go for and they model variations in incoming damage that require that from time to time. There are still obviously variations beyond that, which are not included and could not be included. If you lean toward a more tool-box/support playstyle, you'll gain less from a reference rotation... but if you know and understand that background to why the reference rotation works, then you'll generally make better decisions about what to do in a given situation too.

I was honestly surprised at how easy it was to create a basic rotation that fits most of the advice in guides well. I tried to create a rotation way back in beta and it was really not possible. It is a measure of just how deep the changes in 1.2 have bitten into the class. They created a couple of fixed points because of their clumsy changes to force management - and they reduced available flexibility and the relative value of heals worsened, which makes the rotation possible.

I don't play any more, but I'd bet that this rotation can tank heal a lot of the encounters in this game and still give some AoE DPS healing alongside it. Add in a burst healing rotation for emergency situations and I'd bet that you'd be good to go for a lot of the content in the game.


XtremJedi's Avatar

04.26.2012 , 07:36 AM | #14
Edit strike that.



Jedi_Kaysha's Avatar

04.26.2012 , 10:52 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by XtremJedi View Post
The rotation was designed on request, but it's a good rotation.
My comment wasn't intended as criticism . It was more a general remark on how encounter mechanics (as well as faults on the side of the participants) can dictate the healing needed. Personally, I'd say an encounter is properly tuned when you have to tax your resources, but not into the very deep red in order to barely survive (for encounters designed around your gear tier). I agree with you that healing has had its tools bent and twisted, giving a rather bland taste to it all.

My own healing style is pretty much based on intuition; I know what spells I have and I try to heal on intuition, based on the demands of the current situation - one that can rapidly change within just a second or stay fairly controlled for a long time. It's the way I healed way back in EverQuest, how I healed in WoW and now in SWToR. As such, I am not really a rotation type healer, even though I can see the benefits as you detailed them. But, as someone else said as well, you can't incorporate encounter events (especially the unexpected ones) into metrics .

Call me crazy, but in HM's I still use a lot of Deliverances, simply because it is the biggest bang for buck, and we manage to survive the encounters. Lost Island HM is still on the chew list, though, and I guess Ops require a different healing tactic altogether (which was the same in EQ as well as WoW).
True strength is not a measure of the body,
It's a measure of the soul

XtremJedi's Avatar

04.26.2012 , 12:11 PM | #16
Yes indeed. I think that the Sage/Sorc still has some of its ability to support varied play-styles, even if less than before. I think that they're also still comfortably the best healers all round, so you'd expect them to be able to stray from the norms.

I'm not much of a healing rotation kind of player myself, oddly enough... but I do pay attention to successful tactics. Perhaps I'm somewhere in the middle between the very rotation oriented players and yourself.


SavageTofu's Avatar

06.07.2012 , 08:37 AM | #17
I think there is too much talk about healers not having rotation in this thread. It is true there isnt one load out or correct rotation. For a guide giving an example at least of ur current load out is paramount for helping new players such as myself. That's the point of a guide.

I am not sure what a rotation is honestly but here is what I am using currently. I am level 31 June 7 2012. Please correct me. I use retro interface so I have the numbered bar below. Right now

1) saber strike
Doesn't use force attack
2) deliverance
Low heal low activation
3) rejuvenate
This heals my fav. I can heal while running.
4) healing trance
Heal over time
5) disturbance
Low force low activation for roughly 350 damage
6) force slow
Low force 250 damage & slows down an add
7) telekinetic throw
Does 900 damage, slows enemy 50% for 30 force
8) force stun
Stuns target 4 secs, 20 force, 170 damaged
9) force wave
Does 250 damage to surrounding a enemies pushes them back & down sometimes.

0) force armor
Sheild for 30 secs.
-) force lift
Take an enemy out of combat for a minute
=) double strike
Idk why I have this there but I do use it.

So above interface this what I have
Revive companion- not sure why i have this one. if my companion dies I follow suit,
Rally-just in case
Noble sacrifice- I like this move. Gives me force for health. Good in heroics
Tumult- I love this move. 1000 damage after u melee force stun a guy. One of my few crappy combos. Also works good with force lift.
Mind crush-meh not sure why this here. Testing it.
Surgical medpac- heal thy self!
Heroic moment- I like this one just for the instant force stun cool down. It seems helpful when soloing stuff.
Force speed- I wanna run faster sometimes.
Project- there are times doing damage & spending force doesn't matter because sometimes no heals need to go out.
Long spur stap- my ride
Force potency- extra damage & heals. Great instant.
Force valor-it's a buff.

I have 3 more unfinished load outs I can switch to but I really stink at this game. I don't really have a true rotation as much as familiar places I loaded the moves into,

Ty for any help.

Rotoroot's Avatar

06.20.2012 , 01:29 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Edoniltebaun View Post
I really believe healers got (with maybe the exception of the Op/Smuggler) was that our fun was removed due to it being overpowered in PvE & PvP.
Sorcerors are much less fun to play since the nerfs, not because we aren't OP (I would argue we were pretty balanced with mercs/ops but whatever) but because they just completely changed the play style. I wish they would've just lowered the numbers/gains/etc. on the skills but left them the exact same, even with the dual cast bug.

It's soooo boring to sorc heal now but TSW out in a couple of weeks, so I'm willing to overlook it

XtremJedi's Avatar

06.29.2012 , 09:10 AM | #19
Adjusted guideline rotation to reflect reported fixing in 1.3, of the bug which caused the Channel to not eat the Conveyance/Bending stack.


grallmate's Avatar

09.28.2012 , 08:27 PM | #20
Most of this is now negated by the new free, instant cast self heal. I suspect this will get nerfed in future and make this information once more important but it may be worth updating the thread in the mean time.

Thanks for all the hard work X.