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Recent FP experience - Report to BW (Directive 7)

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Flashpoints, Operations, and Heroic Missions
Recent FP experience - Report to BW (Directive 7)

Rock_Spider's Avatar

04.24.2012 , 02:24 AM | #11
A friend and I had this exact problem OP. We where freshish 50s.... really wanted to partake in the FPs. Im a DD trooper and he is a healer smuggler. We wiped the first time (didnt have a dedicated tank) and saw how difficult it is if you dont get the setup and mechanics right so we abandoned the 1st attempt.

It then took us 2 weeks.... 2 WEEKS! To get a full group of 1 tank 1 healer 2 dps. 2 nites ago we finally achieved that and finished the FP. It was quite fun, but the gear drop was terrible.

Anyway... long story short... on a 100 ave ppl on the fleet server it took us 2 weeks to get a group of the right makeup together for D7. Kinda sucks but I guess there isnt much one can do.

SpoeMeister's Avatar

04.24.2012 , 03:15 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Bastilla View Post
Okay, your insights have been valuable elucidation to me!
From what I've read I try to derive some logical conclusions (in a Mr.Spock-kind of way).

  1. The game design demands that in the long run I must comply to the trinity formula. (To work around this only works during leveling.) Right?
  2. Means, at least in respect to successful FP questing with others, I can absolutely make false decisions when setting spec points. Hybrids won't get anywhere in the long run. Right?
  3. Means, when speccing up your char you have to be aware of this and make conscious choices, opting for one way only. Right?
  4. Means, step by step the number of persons I can successfully join with will be naturally filtered and limited by their chosen role. Right?
  5. Means, in order to continueously find poeple to group with the ratio of chosen roles of all players must fit more or less the trinity formula of the game mechanics. (50% DDs, 25% Healers, 25% Tanks.) Right?
  6. Means, since it's already hard to find any people using LFG tooling - let alone role filtering - I have to find a guild of actually at least 20 persons or more to cover my need for healers and tanks. Right?
  7. Bundling all players of a given server into separate guilds does not increase the total number of healers and tanks. Right?
  8. Means, the actual ratio of folks (usually DDs) desparately in need for other roles (usually tanks and healers) has not altered, but improved for those lucky guys in guilds with a beneficial ratio, and of course naturally declined for those guys not being in such a guild. Right?
  9. Means, grouping in guilds is a win situation for some gamers by naturally depleting human resources at the other end of the server. Right?

So, in terms of successfully finding fitting groups guilds are win-loose bundling devises. (From an overall mathematical kind of view. But enough funny sidenotes.) I've had one experience with a guild which was rather gruesome - a few bad apples spoiled the cake of solidarity.

What if mass guilds are not my kind?
What if I stick to my approach of giving spec points according to what was fun and used by me during combat more often?

Anyway, I have to thank you guys for truly have pointed me to the fact this is the genre of MMO with a well known formula. Right now, I cannot image to convince my buddies to learn and comply to this as it is a little too complicated and restrictive for the casual gamers they are. For me I have to find a way to deal with the shortcomings (namely running short of poeple to join with) that this trinity distinction involves.

Troll - disclaimer!

I learned (and still learn) MMO functioning by SWTOR (only). Again, I don't try to bring people to rage. Nor do I intend to have a discussion on fundamental pro and cons of this approach - as this leads nowhere. But if I can figure out how this works, and works best for me, this thread might have some merits for others.
In principal you are right. You need to find people to play alongside with, that is why it's an MMO. And while playing, everyone has a role to fullfill to that group. If you all have the same role in a group, the group will eventually fail.

It's the same in Real Life. For example: soccer. There needs to be a goalkeeper, defenders, midfielders and strikers. If everyone decides to be a striker and just try to score as many goals as possible, in the end you would still lose because your goal is defenceless. (I compare this to having 4 DD's). Either way as well, if everyone just focuses on defending their goal, you're more likely to lose as well because you can't score a single goal (IE: four tanks/healers cannot hope to beat the enrage timer). In order to win a match, you need to balance out defence (heal), control (tank) and offence (DD).

But as I said before, there are teams that are focused a bit more on offence than defence (3 Bulky DD and one dedicated healer) or the other way around. It's still manageable, but a huge risk! for that to work, you'll need better coordination (ie.: teamspeak, practice strategies). But just like in soccer, it's a huge risk.

You say for example you are a hybrid Agent. How much damage do you regularly do in FP's while healing your three partners? I know hybrids are fun for solo-leveling and even for PvP, but in a Flashpoint, unless you have a dedicated healer besides you, the points in your damage abilities are wasted... as I don't see a moment where you consistantly do a damaging rotation, while at the same time keeping up all four of you (as you don't have a tank).

I have a casual guild with 8 people I randomly met on this game and that are from my region. Total accident and we really hit off. We always make teams of four and work together. I have made a tank and a healer to have good support roles while others do the same (DPS/Heal or DPS/tank). That way, whoever may be online, we can always find a groupformation to do FP's with. Even the one with Bulky DPS but a damn good healer.

Don't be discouraged by this. Prove me wrong! I'm always open to finding new and exciting ways to plow through Flashpoints. But remember that if you don't want to do the way the things are easiest, you will require a lot more strategy (aggro control, crowd control, simultaneous bursts, etc...)
Everything will be OK in the end. If it's not OK, it's not yet the end.

Spivak Legacy (ToFN)
SpoeMeister Orrusos Do'chan Nadobo

Helgarm's Avatar

04.24.2012 , 07:04 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Bastilla View Post
What if mass guilds are not my kind?
What if I stick to my approach of giving spec points according to what was fun and used by me during combat more often?
I think your other queries have been well addressed, but this one caught my attention.

I won't say that MMOs are therefore not for you, for this simply is not true. An MMO only provides the environment within which people can play together, and sets challenges accordingly. These challenges may be further complicated by using mechanics that require specific class and spec combinations. However, there is nothing at all that demands that you experience this group content, apart from yourself.

You may hear people loudly questioning the point of playing an MMO if you don't want to group. I own a pair of training shoes. Does that mean I have to go running, or work out? No. I simply enjoy the shoes. The same is true of an MMO. I can play it just for the pleasure of experiencing the less challenging content, if I so desire.

However, if you do want to experience the group content, and you particularly want to experience the more challenging elements, then yes, you will need to conform, in the main, to the requirements of that content. The debate as to whether this is a good, or a bad, thing continues on elsewhere on the forums. Yet this is the model upon which SWTOR was designed.

The choice, then, is yours. You may continue to play the way you want to play, otherwise you will need to sacrifice some of this creative freedom in order to successfully engage with some of the group content. You may question the need for so much creative freedom, when endgame content tends to limit your options along certain lines, and I wouldn't disagree with you, but that is how this game tends to work.


Bastilla's Avatar

04.26.2012 , 02:55 AM | #14
Thank you guys for your input. This has been a real eye opener for me. I have to face MMO reality and make my choice.

So if I want to invite my friends to SWTOR I better tell them to best spend all spec points to healing or none of them. I see.

I have the impression that the playful and inncocent time of naturally joining random passer-bys who happen to leave the start planet at the same time to embark on an adventure at the Esseles comes to an end the higher you level.

I think the soccer analogy is perfect. As kids at some point we realized one bulk chasing the ball isn't a good strategy. Assigning different tasks is fine. The difference with MMO role assignment is: It's immutable. Instead of agreeing upon who will take what role at the entrance of a flashpoint, I am stuck with doing damage for all my 3,786 hours of total SWTOR play time.

Means, the kids in the backyard teaming up for soccer demand Joe, Jack and Jim to be defenders during all their childhood. -- And oh, what if our keeper, Johnny, is sick? Nobody can replace him, for he is the keeper and Jack isn't. Period. And since Harry will be a striker forever, he may has to stroll beyond his neighbourhood to finally play some minutes of soccer before returning home for dinner. This is the situation I am in with SWTOR right now at level 50 due to permanent role assignment.

Simple maths tells me, the sticky role assignments by the current trinity notion naturally limits the number of possible combinations of actual players on a given server. And that logically limits the number of suitable players I can join for a flashpoint.

I don't mind accepting a role when teaming up -- I think this invention of strategy is challenging and fun. But I regard being stuck to solely firing arms at foes is way less interesting then having the option of exploring healing style too during the career of my character. Which role to take could be agreed upon before entering a certain flashpoint. Just as Jimmy agrees to be the keeper in case Johnny is sick in bed. This flexibility would ease the scarceness of players I see every evening on my fleet.

Well, these conclusions might be logical and nice. But after all they won't change the actual game implementation and the question is if I can deal with it. I reached level cap and there's no way to deny this is a classical sticky-role-MMO. This one-char-one-role restriction wouldn't affect my game experience since I like being a DD. But it severely cuts in all my group based actions for it makes it harder to find people -- and therefore makes flashpoints a rare opportunity. (2 weeks of search for Rock-Spider, see above.)

In the end you are right, I have to make my choice.
It takes nerves of steel to watch this: The story of stuff (21min) Only the bravest will withstand these vids, the rest won't endure. HOME (90min)

NickBlane's Avatar

04.26.2012 , 03:44 AM | #15
I think you are going a bit far when you say you have to pick one role and play it for ever. You can always change your talent point selection. There is a NPC in Imp city that will allow you to reset them, the first one is free, but it costs more money the more often you do it.

However the hybrid thing doesn't really work, a jack or all trades but master of none doesn't work. A healer has to be healing pretty much constantly in an instance, as a hybrid trying to heal you wouldn't have the abilities needed to do that properly and either way you would be so busy healing you would never get to dps.

It is very worth noting though that all this came from your experience in D7. This is not a great example instance. It is a very hard instance at the correct level and is also notoriously buggy. Add to that the fact that is if very close to the level 50 instance, but the gear drops are worthless for any 50, means that most people that will want to run it will be undergeared and under leveled.

Once you get to 50 and get some better gear, recruit pvp gear can now be bought for around 300k and it probably the best starter gear as a level 50 for pvp or pve, you can start to be a little more flexible with your roles again. I doubt many of the normal mode instances will pose you the same problem the D7 does. And story mode EV is fairly easy as well. If you want to do Hard mode flashpoints and operations though you will be forced back into a specfic role.

SpoeMeister's Avatar

04.26.2012 , 05:07 AM | #16
There are people who can play both midfield and striker, but they usually don't do it during one match. It's the same with some classes.

My agent has been primarily leveled to be a healer. However, if there's a need for a DD'er, I can just respec and roll with that. The next time I play, they may need a healer again, so I respec. The same goes for my powertech, although he needs totally different gear (more geared towards endurance when tanking).

I often switch roles between these two toons. You can do the same. It's not a one choice character. However, there are some classes that are solely strikers, just like Fernando Torres can only score goals (sniper, Marauder), while a Lionel Messi can do both attack as midfield (Juggernaut, Powertech, Assassin).
Everything will be OK in the end. If it's not OK, it's not yet the end.

Spivak Legacy (ToFN)
SpoeMeister Orrusos Do'chan Nadobo

Bastilla's Avatar

04.29.2012 , 12:08 PM | #17
Well, I wouldn't equal "before entering a flashpoint" with "during a match". But obviously I am doing something wrong if you can manage to work around it with respeccing. I did this once for zero bucks but don't consider it a feasible solution when adjusting to a concrete group.
So I guess, I either
  • have to be patient and wait for a chance to play higher FPs
  • have to twink an attractive role
  • have to search for a tank and healer which I jealously defend as my buddies against others. Maybe by bribing them?
You guys have a good one.
It takes nerves of steel to watch this: The story of stuff (21min) Only the bravest will withstand these vids, the rest won't endure. HOME (90min)

Nyjin's Avatar

04.29.2012 , 06:20 PM | #18
This thread makes me laugh.

So much discussion over something so simple...

Hope the OP learns about class-roles before he runs into people that will rage at him.

I wouldn't have even stepped into the FP knowing there was no main healer and tank.
Sethlorn Aduial
Conqueror Sentinel
<Ascension> of Vrook Lamar
"Overpowered?! I'll show you overpowered!"

Bastilla's Avatar

04.29.2012 , 06:29 PM | #19
You have veterans and you have newbies.

(But I guess, changing perspective is not in everyone's character specs.
After all I learned and admit MMOs are not my kind of games.)
It takes nerves of steel to watch this: The story of stuff (21min) Only the bravest will withstand these vids, the rest won't endure. HOME (90min)

Larzi's Avatar

04.30.2012 , 09:52 AM | #20
Reading this well written and mild mannered OP was quite entertaining.

I have run Directive 7 as a 50 tank/50 healer/ 46 dps and my heal companion. No problems at all blowing through this fp, we did die at the last boss once before we learned the tactics.

Granted the first time i ran this it was not even the lvl 50 flashpoint. Just regular ole dinky lvl 47 Directive 7.

Directive 7 is very challenging. Good fun also.