Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Zorn and Toth - is it meant to be such a frickle fight?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Flashpoints, Operations, and Heroic Missions
Zorn and Toth - is it meant to be such a frickle fight?

oredith's Avatar


oredith
04.26.2012 , 11:39 AM | #51
question for people who are doing the fight comfortably in HM - since my guild currently does NOT tank swap (in SM), but I've been trying to convince the group to get used to it, since we'll need to do it for HM.

using the following

(A) - tank 1
(B) - tank 2
(Z) - Zorn
(T) - Toth

what i'm imagining is this:

start of fight:
(A).(Z) ----gap---- (T).(B)

at 90% (jump -> fearful):
(A).(Z).(T) ----gap---- (B)

tank swap:
(A)..(T) ----gap---- (Z).(B)

does the DPS travel with the boss after the swap? or do they stay in the same place and dps the new boss?
(╯□)╯┻━┻
flipp'n yo desk, like a bauss
Tankie

Codek's Avatar


Codek
04.26.2012 , 11:57 AM | #52
DPS should stay on their target, which means two things:
1. They move with the target and adjust there positioning once the bosses are in place. (This is what would happen with your example of a set-up)
2. The tanks swap locations making the bosses remain (relatively) in the same spot so DPS can stay still.

Experiment with your group to find what works best. Usually option 1 tends to be easier to survive the fight with tanks taking less damage while the bosses shuffle around. Option 2 allows faster DPS since the DPS don't have to move around so much during the fight.
~Codek

Spifff's Avatar


Spifff
04.26.2012 , 02:07 PM | #53
Our guild is pretty casual and we're trying Toth/Zorn Story mode. We easily clear EV and KP story modes.

We do the strategy that has been described by most people. Someone had a mspaint diagram that looks just like how we do it. Toth taken to the right near the gate. Zorn taken to the left by some trees. One healer stands leftish keeping just in healing range of the left tank. Other healer stands rightish, keeping just in healing rane of the right tank. When Toth jumps we have out tanks switch places so Toth always stays on the right and zorn always on the left. 2 tanks, 2 melee, 2 ranged, 2 heals. melee always on toth. ranged always on zorn.

Here's the problems we run into and would like to know what we're doing wrong.

1. Toth does constnat aoe smashes. Keeps the toth healer on his toes. When Toth does his mini bezerk our tank stands still. Toth's aoe smashes do a tonne more damage. healer cannot keep all three (tank and two melee) alive so the melee are forced to run to the healer and wait out the enrage. A lot of lost dps here.

2. The Zorn healer makes sure he is at max healing range from the zorn tank. he can't be half a step further away. When toth jumps to zorn he pretty much always gets the fearfull debuff. When Toth does his mini bezerk, Zorn spend that time throwing rocks at anyone within range. We expected this to be only the zorn tank but our zorn healer also gets hit even when he's standing at max healing range from the zorn tank. Therefore our healers end up switching places after the Toth jump as well so that the zorn healer never has fearfull. this isn't so bad, just means annoyance for healers.

Is there any way minimize the damage we take?

Infalliable's Avatar


Infalliable
04.26.2012 , 02:16 PM | #54
Quote: Originally Posted by Leopoldo View Post
has anyone managed this fight with melee on both zorn and toth?
We did it on a 16 man with a group of melee DPS on one boss and a group of ranged DPS on the other. We swap targets (and we stay in the same area) after they jump by having the tanks taunt the other mob and pull them to the tank.

The melee DPS definitely have it harder. It did help to have the melee DPS guys run out for a sec. I htink it was when they jumped together, although I'm a ranged DPS and I didn't really pay attention to what they were doing on the other boss.

The ranged guys have it fairly easy as long as you stay at 25-30 meters at all times and avoid the ground spikes. We'd just clump up and get a sorc AOE heal to keep everyone topped off. I almost always eat the first spike as a sniper as there seems to be a delay in getting up and moving around after leaving cover. You can take one and be okay.

Infalliable's Avatar


Infalliable
04.26.2012 , 02:25 PM | #55
Quote: Originally Posted by oredith View Post
question for people who are doing the fight comfortably in HM - since my guild currently does NOT tank swap (in SM), but I've been trying to convince the group to get used to it, since we'll need to do it for HM.

using the following

(A) - tank 1
(B) - tank 2
(Z) - Zorn
(T) - Toth

what i'm imagining is this:

start of fight:
(A).(Z) ----gap---- (T).(B)

at 90% (jump -> fearful):
(A).(Z).(T) ----gap---- (B)

tank swap:
(A)..(T) ----gap---- (Z).(B)

does the DPS travel with the boss after the swap? or do they stay in the same place and dps the new boss?
We make 2 groups for the fight. We assign a healer and 1/2 the DPS to one tank. They stay with whatever that tank is attacking (so they swap mobs after the jump). The extra advantage of this is the two bosses will always die at about the same time as the DPS is averaged out by swapping targets.

It's too crazy having people running around and keeping distance from the mobs.

Also, there is apparently a delay in when the 2 can be effectively taunted so you have to wait a few seconds after they jump together for the tank to swap targets.

Umpire's Avatar


Umpire
04.26.2012 , 02:44 PM | #56
this is the way top tier progression should feel and be. I was very happy with the level of difficulty of 16m HM Z+T as well as the tanks. Haven't killed the tanks but wiping to these encounters isn't so bad.
The F_Swag Stream. High Caliber PVP and PVE.
[Fancy] Swag, The Turks | Powertech | Jedi Covenant

Codek's Avatar


Codek
04.26.2012 , 02:49 PM | #57
Quote: Originally Posted by Spifff View Post
Our guild is pretty casual and we're trying Toth/Zorn Story mode. We easily clear EV and KP story modes.

We do the strategy that has been described by most people. Someone had a mspaint diagram that looks just like how we do it. Toth taken to the right near the gate. Zorn taken to the left by some trees. One healer stands leftish keeping just in healing range of the left tank. Other healer stands rightish, keeping just in healing rane of the right tank. When Toth jumps we have out tanks switch places so Toth always stays on the right and zorn always on the left. 2 tanks, 2 melee, 2 ranged, 2 heals. melee always on toth. ranged always on zorn.

Here's the problems we run into and would like to know what we're doing wrong.

1. Toth does constnat aoe smashes. Keeps the toth healer on his toes. When Toth does his mini enrage our tank stands still. Toth's aoe smashes do a tonne more damage. healer cannot keep all three (tank and two melee) alive so the melee are forced to run to the healer and wait out the enrage. A lot of lost dps here.

2. The Zorn healer makes sure he is at max healing range from the zorn tank. he can't be half a step further away. When toth jumps to zorn he pretty much always gets the fearfull debuff. When Toth does his mini enrage, Zorn spend that time throwing rocks at anyone within range. We expected this to be only the zorn tank but our zorn healer also gets hit even when he's standing at max healing range from the zorn tank. Therefore our healers end up switching places after the Toth jump as well so that the zorn healer never has fearfull. this isn't so bad, just means annoyance for healers.

Is there any way minimize the damage we take?
1. There are two moments that become healing intensive moments during this fight. This first is what you mentioned with Toths mini enrage. The second is the rock explostions and constant AoE phase. Make sure your healers are aware of when these occur and that they split there cooldown usage between these.

For the enrage, the first thing to do is have melee ensure that they do not have fear on them from when the bosses swapped places (occasionally happens with a slip up). If they do by chance have this then they just lost their moment to DPS and must retreat to safety for the time being. Second is to ensure no one has the DoT debuff (forgot the name but I know it has the orange colored symbol). Do a quick cleanse check before the enrage kicks in so no added healing is required. Once he enrages, the healer just pops some cooldowns, throw down some AoE heals and throw some big heals on the tank.

In more detail, as a merc healer I make sure my armor buff and kolto sheild is on the tank to reduce incoming damage, stand on top of the melee group and alternate my AoE heal (with bonus shield from supercharged gas) and big heals among the group. If set-up properly before hand, the group remains topped off throught the whole phase.

2. A few suggestions that may help here. Position so that the healer can reach the tank without getting the fear is possible but tricky, it might be worth it to experiment to achieve this. If not, having the healer back off and then return within a 5-10 second window won't be entirely detrimental to the tanks survival as long as he is topped before hand. Last (may be the worst idea), I don't recall if it's survivable to take one rock throw while having the debuff so if that is the case then I would suggest having ranged dps step closer to absorb some rocks and spread damage around the raid. This allows the tank and healer themselves to take less incoming damage and a better chance at living through it all. Once it's done, the DPS can step back to max range to avoid everything else.


I'm sure something in there might spark an idea for your raid to succeed.
~Codek

Umpire's Avatar


Umpire
04.26.2012 , 02:53 PM | #58
I drew a beautiful MS Paint rendition of how to position the two bosses.

http://i.imgur.com/3H0JS.jpg

it looks like someone swallowed some M&Ms
The F_Swag Stream. High Caliber PVP and PVE.
[Fancy] Swag, The Turks | Powertech | Jedi Covenant

Chaqen's Avatar


Chaqen
04.26.2012 , 03:36 PM | #59
Quote: Originally Posted by Codek View Post
1. There are two moments that become healing intensive moments during this fight. This first is what you mentioned with Toths mini enrage. The second is the rock explostions and constant AoE phase. Make sure your healers are aware of when these occur and that they split there cooldown usage between these.
When toth enrages, the melee needs to run out, that shockwave hits twice as hard, and is a bit hard to catch up from if you have quite a few getting hit. The rock explosion phase should be light healing... those rocks are avoidable and easily manage imo..the dot doesnt hit that hard, so no one should be dropping below 50% during that phase unless they eat a rock. After the phase ends, aoe heal and continue as you were.

xenofire's Avatar


xenofire
04.26.2012 , 07:20 PM | #60
I've been trying to not give away my strategy but... enough people have killed it, I guess I might as well. This works for 16 or 8 man.

A - Tank 1
B - Tank 2
Z - Zorn
T - Toth

Prior to Jump
(A)(T) <-------------------60 yards-------------------> (Z)(B)------------------------------------------------------
<melee>----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------25 Yards-------------------------------------------
--------------------------(healers here)-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------<Ranged DPS>--------------------------


Jump
tank A go that way ---> <--- tank B go that way, take Toth with you
(A) <-------------------60 yards------------------->(T)(Z)(B)------------------------------------------------------
<melee>----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------25 Yards-------------------------------------------
--------------------------(healers here)-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------<Ranged DPS>--------------------------

AfterJump
(B)(T) <-------------------60 yards-------------------> (Z)(A)------------------------------------------------------
<melee>----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------25 Yards-------------------------------------------
--------------------------(healers here)-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------<Ranged DPS>--------------------------

Advantages of this over other methods:
1) Healers never take any smash damage
2) ranged DPS never move, or get debuff, due to the fact that Toth lands on the other side of the tank from them, giving an additional 5+ yards of space.
3) ranged never take smash damage
4) You can place your smart sorc DPS with the healers and they can dot both targets for massive dps. (Lightning sorcs are amazing here.). You can also put snipers there for double shatter shot.
5) The only people who need healing outside of sonic phase are the tanks and the melee dps.
Guildmaster of The Remnant on The Harbinger
#4 World | #2 US | EC16 HM