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Tanking: A Primer


Heezdedjim's Avatar


Heezdedjim
12.14.2011 , 07:43 AM | #21
So if I understand the math right, if we assume everyone maxes out at some point, and assuming all DPS classes will be pimping CC above all else, then shield chance greater than (1 - Max Possible Crit Chance) will always be wasted in PvP.

In other words, once you have "eaten" the maximum number of normal hits that could possibly occur given a maxed out crit chance, the only further increase you can get in mitigation is through avoidance rather than shield chance. (Of course, you could still reduce some of the damage from normal hits with absorption, since all normal attacks will be shielded where CC + SC = 1; but that's secondary to CC vs. SC.)

I also have a question on the avoidance mechanics; you said there is a hard cap of 100% on Accuracy, but this thread is talking about 105% Accuracy "reducing" the base Avoidance in the same way you refer to CC overriding SC where the two overlap. If there is a hard cap of 100% on the accuracy stat itself, then it seems like "some" avoidance always helps. Do we have any idea which of these premises is the least incorrect at this point?

Or do you mean that there is no way to achieve a net of higher than a 100% chance (complete certainty) of landing a hit? (I know that seems like a tautology, but I have seen games where "excess" hit chance spills over into higher crit chance, so it's at least possible to have systems that fall into Wacky Math Land with > 100% probabilities of landing a hit.)

Gankstah's Avatar


Gankstah
12.14.2011 , 09:07 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Lucubration View Post
Gankstah,

Thanks for posting this resource; it's only generally useful information if it's also generally accessible, so you're performing a valuable service by helping to disseminate it.

I'm a little confused about why the Mod bonus is described as being additive but the Modulator bonus is added directly to the base stat calculation. From what I've seen, they both just give Rating bonuses (for example +41 Defense Rating versus +34 Defense Rating, I think it was), so wouldn't you get the same results if you treated both as just modifiers in the base stat calculations instead of treating the Mods as a special case? Or is that just for convenience?

Thanks again.

Regards,
Lucubration
I don't think I understand the question... if you're referring to the Mods For Tanks section I separated the two simply for discussion purposes.

Because "Standard Mods" cap out at 41 points and Modulators cap out at 34 points, currently. So to make it easier for the reader to "eyeball" I created the standard mod chart letting them know what percentages would look like if they allocated x standard mods for y stat. Modulators--try not to confuse the word Modulator with the word mods because they are two different things--make this easy-to-"eyeball"-chart more complex because of their 34 point cap total.

Their contribution isn't special or different. I did this simply for instruction purposes so those of us out there who aren't too good with math could get the gist of how the system works visually.

Gankstah's Avatar


Gankstah
12.14.2011 , 09:10 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Heezdedjim View Post
In other words, once you have "eaten" the maximum number of normal hits that could possibly occur given a maxed out crit chance, the only further increase you can get in mitigation is through avoidance rather than shield chance.
Yes, this is basically how the system works. You have got it correctly. Once shield and crit have "eaten" hit then you are either missed, crit or suffer a shielded attack.

Cademus's Avatar


Cademus
12.14.2011 , 04:07 PM | #24
The crit/hit table has me a bit confused. If hit is first pushed off the table, leaving crit and shielded hits, then as I see it, defense is the primary stat to stack, provided disminishing returns penalties are not severe. Intuitively, I though shield rating/absorption rating would be the best. This is what most of the operation tanks were suggesting during the beta, and was the foundation of the argument that BH/Vanguard were the best tanks (due to less spiky damage). I can't speak from firsthand operation experience, but it still seems counter-intuitive to either be crit or a 30% (or more) hit.

avinknight's Avatar


avinknight
12.15.2011 , 11:43 AM | #25
Well done, and flagged for sticky.

Thanks bro!
vVv
Veni Vidi Vici
Come join us at www.vvvguild.com

Kaigen's Avatar


Kaigen
12.15.2011 , 01:26 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Cademus View Post
The crit/hit table has me a bit confused. If hit is first pushed off the table, leaving crit and shielded hits, then as I see it, defense is the primary stat to stack, provided disminishing returns penalties are not severe. Intuitively, I though shield rating/absorption rating would be the best. This is what most of the operation tanks were suggesting during the beta, and was the foundation of the argument that BH/Vanguard were the best tanks (due to less spiky damage). I can't speak from firsthand operation experience, but it still seems counter-intuitive to either be crit or a 30% (or more) hit.
For PvE and operation tanking, this really depends on what kind of crit chances bosses have. Since there's a cap of 50% shield chance (last I knew), a boss needs to have greater than a 50% crit chance before there's any concern about it being able to push shield chance off the chart. As far as the relative value of Defense Rating, that also depends on the Accuracy rating of bosses, since Accuracy greater than 100% reduces Defense, and I'm pretty sure mobs of higher level (such as bosses) get accuracy bonuses, which may reduce the value of Defense for avoiding crits.

PvP is another thing entirely, since some classes have large temporary crit chance buffs that can push shielding off the table, and if everyone is stacking Defense, DPS can stack Accuracy to compensate.

Gankstah's Avatar


Gankstah
12.15.2011 , 03:28 PM | #27
^ Basically what he said.

Without knowing what Accuracy %'s we're dealing with in PvE it's too soon to say that Defense is definitively better than Shield. At the moment, this is how it looks. Two months from now after more data is obtained that point of view may change.

Also, all we know is the tooltip for Accuracy says it affects Defense. That's it. What we don't know is how this mechanic functions and to what degree.

Voar's Avatar


Voar
12.15.2011 , 04:23 PM | #28
I am wrapping my head around the mods. There is a lot of different terminology floating around that could mean the same thing. Mostly from different builds.

Is the following correct?

Augments = Modulators?
Enhancements = Overlays?

If so could the guilde be edited to avoid confusion?

Absolutely awesome write up!!!

Daning's Avatar


Daning
12.15.2011 , 07:43 PM | #29
I just have to /sign this thread. Fantastic work! Much like a healer you (as in all contributers) deserve appreciation for the effort

Atermon's Avatar


Atermon
12.16.2011 , 05:33 AM | #30
It's always mindblowing to me how some of you guys analyse classes/roles in MMO's.

A "must read!" for all MMO gamers no doubt.

Thank you sir,may the force be with you
"The ability to speak doesn't make u intelligent"

"So long and thanks for all the fish."

~The Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy~