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[PvE] Imbalanced DPS between DDs is laughable

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
[PvE] Imbalanced DPS between DDs is laughable

Tyrias's Avatar


Tyrias
04.21.2012 , 09:02 AM | #21
While you might take this as slanderous insult, it is worth noting that any of the people that I know who play multiple different classes vary in skill greatly between those classes, despite being the same player behind the character. However good the OP may believe themself to be, the chances are that differing skill levels will have as much of an impact on your results than anything else.

Also, I'd have to disagree that Pure DPS classes should have more DPS than classes with more than one potential role. If I, as a Sage, spec for max DPS, most of my support abilities suffer. It would cost me over 10% of my max force pool just to throw on a shield if I'm not specced for it (based on the assumption that I wouldn't have the extra 50 for the Force-Mystic set bonus).

If it were the case that Pure DPS classes were better than the rest, why would you take anyone who ISN'T a pure DPS to do the damage dealing? In an 8-man raid you'd have 3 AC's fighting over 2 healing spots, 3 AC's fighting over two tank spots, and the remaind 4 spots being given to only 2 AC's. That makes even less sense than Pure DPS AC's having limited role options.
"If you've got a problem, stick a worm in it".

Lovia's Avatar


Lovia
04.21.2012 , 10:43 AM | #22
Every dps spec should bring the same exact damage dealing capability to the table, including every dps spec from every class that can fill additional roles, the difference should be that they bring different utility into the table from crowd control to emergency tanking to emergency healing and group buffs and debuffs.

I consider everything else unaccaptable in modern mmos like swtor mostly due to the fact that it would lead on optimal operation setups and some advanced classes and/or specs not making the cut for operation spots.
For example why bring a dps pyrotech/vanguard when you can bring an aditional marauder/sentinel? Or why bring a sniper when you can bring a commando?

Also the content is doable with every setup within logical bounds isnt an acceptable answer to a scenario where dps, raw healing and mitigation is different between classes. People will pick the easiest path and why wouldnt they? why waste time grouping with gimped ppl and risk to waste your time on wipes when you can just rush in with an optimal setup and beat the content easily?

>>TLR All damage dealing specs from all advanved classes should do the same dps, period.

On a pvp perspective things are very different because personal survivability does play a critical role as do a number of utility options and other tools (cc, stealth, range, burst, healing reduction etc) balancing pvp in a game where pve is balanced and competitive is art if not impossible.

Macroecon's Avatar


Macroecon
04.21.2012 , 09:50 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by trevah View Post
Also, just as a heads up, the lack of dodge/deflect on dummies give maras a huge advantage as their OH weapon will always hit. Which will compensate for some of this skew. Not 2-600DPS, but some.
Actually for Mara/Sent the target dummies will systematically underestimate their dps. That's because the dummies don't attack back and thus can't trigger the Mara's Retaliate ability. That's easily worth 100 dps or so that a competent Mara can accomplish in the field.

Xyleya's Avatar


Xyleya
04.22.2012 , 12:27 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Lovia View Post
Every dps spec should bring the same exact damage dealing capability to the table, including every dps spec from every class that can fill additional roles, the difference should be that they bring different utility into the table from crowd control to emergency tanking to emergency healing and group buffs and debuffs.

I consider everything else unaccaptable in modern mmos like swtor mostly due to the fact that it would lead on optimal operation setups and some advanced classes and/or specs not making the cut for operation spots.
For example why bring a dps pyrotech/vanguard when you can bring an aditional marauder/sentinel? Or why bring a sniper when you can bring a commando?

Also the content is doable with every setup within logical bounds isnt an acceptable answer to a scenario where dps, raw healing and mitigation is different between classes. People will pick the easiest path and why wouldnt they? why waste time grouping with gimped ppl and risk to waste your time on wipes when you can just rush in with an optimal setup and beat the content easily?

>>TLR All damage dealing specs from all advanved classes should do the same dps, period.

On a pvp perspective things are very different because personal survivability does play a critical role as do a number of utility options and other tools (cc, stealth, range, burst, healing reduction etc) balancing pvp in a game where pve is balanced and competitive is art if not impossible.
Thank you for the first good response.

To the others. Damage-logs and all that stuff don't show anything actually, as they don't show your rotations or how good you do your rotations, that's why I'm not posting any and simply compare the raw damage-numbers.

If you want, you can use a calculator and calculate the optimal DPS for the classes and then you'll end up with pretty much the same numbers I've posted +-10%. Even before the damage-logs I've used tools to calculate damage and they're allmost 100% accurate to the now available damage-logs.

So, we're not talking player-skills etc here, but raw numbers and they simply are totally screwed up between the classes.
Like the person above stated, then every DD should do the same amount, with a little more DPS for the melees ofc, but not 30+%.

Wallach's Avatar


Wallach
04.22.2012 , 03:18 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Xyleya View Post
To the others. Damage-logs and all that stuff don't show anything actually, as they don't show your rotations or how good you do your rotations, that's why I'm not posting any and simply compare the raw damage-numbers.
Damage logs are the raw damage numbers. There are literally zero situations where truly accurate data can be generated without a player at the keyboard in-game. We use these real results to try and generate theoretical numbers, not the other way around. Don't insult the efforts of other people that actually put in work towards theorycrafting by replacing effort with rhetoric then pretending your claims carry any weight.

Floread's Avatar


Floread
04.22.2012 , 04:10 PM | #26
DPS between the DD classes is definitely not balanced.
Just did a KP nightmare mode and got the following.

Foreman Crusher
Sentinel: 1115dps
Sage: 803dps
Commando: 777dps

Karagga
Sentinel: 1075dps
Sage: 792dps
Commando: 784dps

As far as I know, Karagga and Foreman Crusher are not dummies.

Crommi's Avatar


Crommi
04.22.2012 , 05:21 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Floread View Post
DPS between the DD classes is definitely not balanced.
Just did a KP nightmare mode and got the following.

Foreman Crusher
Sentinel: 1115dps
Sage: 803dps
Commando: 777dps

Karagga
Sentinel: 1075dps
Sage: 792dps
Commando: 784dps

As far as I know, Karagga and Foreman Crusher are not dummies.
So, you just pick the two fights where ranged has less up-time on boss because they have to keep avoiding things while melee can stay on DPS all the time?

Foreman Crusher
-Ranged needs to keep avoiding rocks, lowering their overall DPS. Rocks never hit melee.

Karagga
-Ranged needs to pay attention and run out of gravity wells while melee just needs maintain position on Karagga's side to not get hit by flames or rockets.

Xyleya's Avatar


Xyleya
04.22.2012 , 07:09 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Wallach View Post
Damage logs are the raw damage numbers. There are literally zero situations where truly accurate data can be generated without a player at the keyboard in-game. We use these real results to try and generate theoretical numbers, not the other way around. Don't insult the efforts of other people that actually put in work towards theorycrafting by replacing effort with rhetoric then pretending your claims carry any weight.
Play all of the classes yourself and come again.

Wallach's Avatar


Wallach
04.22.2012 , 09:33 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Xyleya View Post
Play all of the classes yourself and come again.
Strange how you quoted my post but failed to address a single word in it. And by strange I mean quite predictable given your inability to defend any argument you've put forward in this entire thread.

What's really embarrassing about this thread is that it is absolute fact that the average DPS of individual ACs is not "balanced" nor was that ever in contention; individual encounter mechanics alone would not allow it as such even if Bioware had the best game designers in the entire industry (which I think SWTOR has shown they very clearly do not). But you've done everything in your power with every post in this thread to prove to us that you couldn't take part in an informed discussion about that very topic at all. You've dodged every opportunity to show anyone even a single discrepancy with a shred of evidence, while comically attempting to posture as if speaking from a place of authority. That you're arguing this topic from ignorance is transparent like good glass.

You're right about one thing at least - that if these players want their evidence, they should go find it for themselves or from actual knowledgeable players that can show them real data. It would seem you have nothing to offer them.

Floread's Avatar


Floread
04.23.2012 , 03:22 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Crommi View Post
So, you just pick the two fights where ranged has less up-time on boss because they have to keep avoiding things while melee can stay on DPS all the time?

Foreman Crusher
-Ranged needs to keep avoiding rocks, lowering their overall DPS. Rocks never hit melee.

Karagga
-Ranged needs to pay attention and run out of gravity wells while melee just needs maintain position on Karagga's side to not get hit by flames or rockets.
Really? As far as I could see, Foreman Crusher, only 1 guy has to move out of the rocks. That's not a huge change. Foreman Crusher changes aggro after frenzy, so the melee dps has to chase him down, while the ranged continue to dps. The argument has always been that ranged can continue to dps while melee has to do the chasing.

Karagga, if you are constantly being interrupted in dps because of the gravity wells, you haven't spaced yourselves out enough and I suggest you tell your ops group to be more spatially aware or the healers have to heal more for nothing. Ranged dps has the advantage in Karagga because they really can move a lot less.

And as for Bonethrasher.
Sentinel: 1444dps
Sage: 1011dps
Commando: 971dps and 959dps.