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Constructive Feedback on L5R (progression block boss in Lost Island HM)

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Flashpoints, Operations, and Heroic Missions
Constructive Feedback on L5R (progression block boss in Lost Island HM)

lordhelmos's Avatar


lordhelmos
04.19.2012 , 07:50 PM | #11
With a shadow tank the encounter is significantly easier. The tank can resilience out of incinerate and mindsnap can interrupt from outside of melee range. I imagine it was much harder for our guardian tank during our last kill.

Kaonis's Avatar


Kaonis
04.19.2012 , 10:18 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by murshawursha View Post
I agree, especially the part about this fight being far too unforgiving for melee DPS. There is simply too much AoE/environmental damage to deal with.
The AoE damage would be fine....if it didn't hit like a truck. That seems to be this fights biggest issue is it's totally big on AoE damage, interrupting every ability, not using melee (because of Plasma Arc), and simply being chaotic on top of everything hitting with massive damage.

I'm a Juggernaut DPS and as of yet I've yet to clear this fight simply because I was apparently a fool to think melee had any place in this game, as the devs seem to keep telling us.

I'm curious if the devs will ever actually understand the difference between hard/challenging and simply unfair and cheap?

Chaqen's Avatar


Chaqen
04.20.2012 , 11:31 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Kaonis View Post
The AoE damage would be fine....if it didn't hit like a truck. That seems to be this fights biggest issue is it's totally big on AoE damage, interrupting every ability, not using melee (because of Plasma Arc), and simply being chaotic on top of everything hitting with massive damage.

I'm a Juggernaut DPS and as of yet I've yet to clear this fight simply because I was apparently a fool to think melee had any place in this game, as the devs seem to keep telling us.

I'm curious if the devs will ever actually understand the difference between hard/challenging and simply unfair and cheap?
This is actually the easiest healing fight in the FP, besides the bonus boss; which doesnt count as a boss imo. The aoe damage can be mainly avoided by moving probably as a group, and what damage that is done can be easily healed with aoe heals. The tank, takes very lil amount of damage besides the channel ability (kolto probes keep a tank up 80% of the time for me), if the tank is slow on interrupting, be prepared to cure him/her quickly.

I always hate people that say L2P, but honestly all this fight takes is awareness of whats going on, it may take a few wipes to learn to pay attention to everything, and after that should be a walk in the park.

Flain's Avatar


Flain
04.20.2012 , 12:48 PM | #14
Tank him to the sides of the room, with the tank in front and other ranged/melee behind. Interrupting Incinerate must be top priority and when you see him put an electric dome down the tank and the rest of you must move him. Stay to the sides and move around the room in a clockwise motion (start at the bottom right corner of the room). When the adds come you can take out the first pack but you can leave the rest if you wish as they do minimal damage and you want as much DPS on the boss as possible. You can also run through lava if need me to go around the corners of the room as it doesn't do that much damage as long as you don't stand in it. Simply continue to have the tank kite him around the room moving him when needed and eventually he's dead.

This video is kinda how we do it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2M6nGcGVmo

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
04.20.2012 , 12:48 PM | #15
To everyone who is saying the OP should "learn to play" or "get better gear" (it's coming) or similar, let me include a bit of information that the OP didn'tů

Lordhelmos is probably the most skilled shadow DPS on our server. As for gear, he's (last I checked) in mostly Rakata with a few Columi pieces. I assure you, this is not a skill or gear issue. Though, I would be curious which DPS spec the OP was in (infiltration or balance). He tends to swap between them. Balance has a bit more range than infil, so it would probably be better for this fight.

Having now done this fight on hard mode with a highly skilled melee group (Tam, Obi-Dammos, Thornmist, Vit), I can confirm that stacking melee is pretty much death by composition. Even the shadow tank (me) isn't enough to balance this out, despite the longer range interrupts and superior cooldowns. I pretty much agree with everything the OP said, though casting incinerate inside of a lightning sphere isn't *really* instadeath if you have a shadow tank, since we never saw incinerate casted more frequently than the cooldown on my interrupt. That only works because of the ranged interrupt though, and isn't an option for many compositions.

In the "more information" from OP category, I'd be curious as to who the other party members were? I'm trying to get a feel for what skill and gear levels have been successful in downing this boss.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

DarkfallDC's Avatar


DarkfallDC
04.20.2012 , 01:28 PM | #16
"Death by Composition" you say. And yet people have defeated the boss with a melee stacked group. Again, this is clearly not a balance issue, more that you're having trouble adapting to unfriendly melee mechanics. The fight changes with a whole melee party. Suck it up, or grab some ranged.

lordhelmos's Avatar


lordhelmos
04.20.2012 , 02:58 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by DarkfallDC View Post
"Death by Composition" you say. And yet people have defeated the boss with a melee stacked group. Again, this is clearly not a balance issue, more that you're having trouble adapting to unfriendly melee mechanics. The fight changes with a whole melee party. Suck it up, or grab some ranged.
I won't say that the fight is unbeatable with a full melee group, but what I am saying is that a melee composition vs. a range composition raises the difficulty of the fight exponentially.

Sure you can down the boss with a 4 melee composition (which is a tad easier if the tank is a shadow or assassin since that tank type has better built in abilities for dealing with the bosses' mechanics), but bringing ranged makes the fight significantly easier.

My issue isn't that the boss is hard, I think that his difficulty level is not too bad, my main gripe is the difficulty when its a melee composition vs. a ranged composition.

There are many encounters in TOR that face similar issues due to the game's reliance on enrage timers in order to set the "bar of difficulty" for an encounter.

As you layer more and more movement mechanics into a fight, playing melee becomes significantly harder due to the enrage timer and the difficulty of having to stay in proximity of a boss that is dropping aoe and movement abilities while still trying to do enough damage to beat the enrage.

I would not mind if the fight was only slightly more difficult for a ranged composition vs. a melee one, but the difference here is night and day.

When creating an encounter, having the difficulty of one composition (melee) vs. another (ranged) vary so widely leads to behavior that is bad for progression players which includes what we saw in pre 1.2 nightmare raids with people stacking up to a full raid of commandos and gunslingers to deal with bosses like Bonethrasher and Fabricator while exiling melee dps.

When determining class balance and gauging encounter design, it is important that every class has something unique and appealing to bring to the encounter. For bringing melee dps, there should be some benefit vs. ranged.

In many fights melee leans more and more towards being a liability due to unfavorable mechanics. L5R is a perfect example of this.

Yes you CAN clear the boss with seasoned melee groups, but good players can overcome many challenges with skill. Does this make it balanced? In this case I would say no. Because an extremely geared group can clear it with all melee doesn't mean is balanced in a sense that is it fairly accessible to the majority of the population's group compositions.

I posted several decent suggestions on how to go about making the encounter more melee friendly. It can be as simple as making it so that the boss takes MORE damage from melee based attacks to compensate melee players who have to avoid blanket area attacks while working with an extremely small space (in order to be in proximity of the boss and beat the enrage).

Right now in most encounters (Bonethrasher, Fabricator, L5R, Gharj), there is almost NO punishment for stacking ranged over melee to decrease the difficulty of the encounter.

Many melee players feel cheated or that their class value has been diminished because of this, and in this context they have a valid point.

If its perfectly fine to create encounters with global abilities that generally may not favor melee, but when it is done to the extreme (like in L5R's case), counterbalancing mechanics such as:

-AoE boss aura that decreased aoe damage to melee players
-Boss takes increased damage from melee abilities
-Area effects prioritize ranged
-Disruption abilities done in melee range have additional benefits (such as locking down incinerate for a longer period of time)

There also many other options that the community and devs can come up with.

LordTie's Avatar


LordTie
04.20.2012 , 03:33 PM | #18
Here is a video to help you out. ANY group comp will work. people who say range have a clearer advantage are making excuses period. LR-5 fight is find the way it is. Stop over thinking it..


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uR-bl...eature=related
Duct tape is like the force, it has a light side and a dark side and it holds the universe together.

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
04.21.2012 , 12:01 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by lordhelmos View Post
-Boss takes increased damage from melee abilities
Actually, in the combat log parses for my standard raid group (which is evenly mixed, melee and range), the average DPS for melee and range is almost exactly even. It's close enough that skill, gear and RNG are more than enough to account for the variance. This is significant, because it holds even on fights that have a very high amount of movement (e.g. Toth and Zorn). In other words, melee DPS is getting less of a chance to attack the boss, but it's still putting up the same damage numbers. This indicates that melee DPS *is* higher than ranged in this game, and that is the balance measure for all of these melee-unfriendly fights.

Note that on fights which *don't* have extensive movement (like Fabricator or the Annihilator Droid), melee easily out DPSes range (by about 25%). Note that this tallies pretty closely with what Gabe has said in the past: melee is intentionally higher DPS to compensate for all of their mechanical disadvantages.

All of that is an aside. L5R is an unusually melee-unfriendly fight, there's just no way around it. Still doable, but a DPS advantage of 25% doesn't seem like it would be enough to compensate for the AoE penalties imposed by the boss.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

lordhelmos's Avatar


lordhelmos
04.21.2012 , 07:07 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Actually, in the combat log parses for my standard raid group (which is evenly mixed, melee and range), the average DPS for melee and range is almost exactly even. It's close enough that skill, gear and RNG are more than enough to account for the variance. This is significant, because it holds even on fights that have a very high amount of movement (e.g. Toth and Zorn). In other words, melee DPS is getting less of a chance to attack the boss, but it's still putting up the same damage numbers. This indicates that melee DPS *is* higher than ranged in this game, and that is the balance measure for all of these melee-unfriendly fights.

Note that on fights which *don't* have extensive movement (like Fabricator or the Annihilator Droid), melee easily out DPSes range (by about 25%). Note that this tallies pretty closely with what Gabe has said in the past: melee is intentionally higher DPS to compensate for all of their mechanical disadvantages.

All of that is an aside. L5R is an unusually melee-unfriendly fight, there's just no way around it. Still doable, but a DPS advantage of 25% doesn't seem like it would be enough to compensate for the AoE penalties imposed by the boss.
This is interesting, a lot of the posts concerning raid dps on AskMrRobot show gunslingers extremely high on the parse over most other classes (probably due to grav round/tracer missile being broken atm). Sentinels come up there to be competitive, this might just be a reflection of player skill. Thanks for the number crunch on this, this is interesting information.