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<Crux> 4/4 HM Cleared


xenofire's Avatar


xenofire
04.18.2012 , 12:56 PM | #21
Stop saying 8 man is competitively tuned with 16 man. I've cleared both, 8 multiple times on PTS, and 16 multiple times on live.

I can sleepwalk through 8 man hard mode as a healer except for the second boss. 16 man is still a bit challenging even after knowing every encounter by heart. 8 man is not challenging in the slightest bit anymore.
Guildmaster of The Remnant on The Harbinger
#4 World | #2 US | EC16 HM

Eddizel's Avatar


Eddizel
04.18.2012 , 01:55 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Krewel View Post
And again, there's a difference between this tier and the last. The enrage timers and healing issues are much tighter than the last tier, so it becomes a lot more unforgiving for 8 man. They promised some "balance", making 16 man slightly easier when it comes to raw numbers, and that can definitely be felt at bosses like Minesweeper and Kephess (dpsing down the last bomber when two tanks need to be on Kephess; really tight healing right before the last phase and right before the very last phase (in order to survive that purple crap on the floor Marauder's Predation and Sniper's Shield are needed, etc.).

The smaller size really is irrelevant for this type of raid in which the spaces you move in are vast by default. The only difference are Stormcaller and Firebrand where the platforms are quite small for 16 people to manouver.

I'm not saying that 16 man is easier by default now and that it's automatically a walk in the park, far from it, it's just that I'm glad that they kept their promise in tuning 8 man to the appropriate level. If you compare 8 man NiM Karagga's Palace and 16 man NiM, the difference is just ridiculous and it's an embarrassing design, but that is no longer the case in EC HM.
Once again, JUST STOP.

Ever since WOW went to a same loot no matter size system and the same thing in SWTOR, the smaller size has NEVER been harder or even equal to the larger size, even though they claim it is always their goal to make them equal, they just can't do it. You have the very few exceptions to this rule where a smaller size fight was tuned extremely tight, but these are also extremely rare (hi sinestra or 3 drake sarth). 90% of the content is always harder on the larger size.

The devs have to say that they are going for "balance" and both sizes are "competitve" because they drop the same loot. THEY HAVE TO SAY THAT AND IT HAS NEVER BEEN TRUE. It is not true in this tier either.

I could give examples in this tier how 16 man is more difficult in a good number of ways but I am not going to bother, I am sorry but talking to people who try to justify smaller size raiding as "competitve" is like talking to a wall.

By all means, raid what you enjoy, but please don't try to validate it as "competitive", it just isn't and competitive raiders will ALWAYS gravitate to the larger size.

The fact is I guess I look down on 8 man or smaller size raiding, I know that is elitist, and stupid, but I can't help it. You don't deserve the same quality loot as the larger size, sorry, you just don't.

I will give you that they did a vast improvement on the difficulty from 8 man tier 1 to tier 2, but they did that for 16 as well, and 8 is still not even close to on par with 16.

cshouston's Avatar


cshouston
04.18.2012 , 02:59 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Eddizel View Post
...The fact is I guess I look down on 8 man or smaller size raiding, I know that is elitist, and stupid, but I can't help it. You don't deserve the same quality loot as the larger size, sorry, you just don't.
And the truth is revealed.

It's just harder to get 16 people to carry their own weight. We're nearly able to run 16 man again, so I suppose the personal debate will end shortly for me and mine, but I still think they're equal in relative difficulty. Since 1.2, there have been changes to Tier 1 content as well. I've run 8 and 16 in EV on two different characters since then. On 8, the trash is a joke, yes. On 16, it hits harder, BUT you have twice as many healers to compensate. People just need to be awake and not treat it like 8 man. In *relative* difficulty, it's the same, you just require more out of more people. Therein lies the difficulty.

That being said, I would never think to diminish the accomplishments of our friends in Condemned, or the folks in Millenium across the pond. I just think that it's unfair to dismiss the accomplishments of an 8 man guild. The content is more demanding and with eight, you can't afford to have one screwing around or not playing well.
* World 3rd Tier Ⅰ Nightmare 16m * World 1st Tier Ⅱ Hard 8m *

pure_laced's Avatar


pure_laced
04.18.2012 , 03:32 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by cshouston View Post
And the truth is revealed.
I just think that it's unfair to dismiss the accomplishments of an 8 man guild. The content is more demanding and with eight, you can't afford to have one screwing around or not playing well.
The problem is, we already have one person that has done it multiple times for both difficulties and states that 8 is a joke compared to 16 man. On Firebrand and Stormcaller 16, if one person makes a mistake, it is a 90% chance of a wipe depending on the mistake. There isn't really a lot of leeway for error.

12 guilds have reported killing 8man 4/4 Hm on the raid progress site. Crux isn't one of them though they posted here. Out of the 16 man guild, 4 have posted there. 1/3 the number. I would also venture to say that more 16 man guilds are active on the forums, pts, etc moreso than the 8 man guilds. Theory only, but stands to reason. More members, more activity within the community.

Not everyone looks down on 8mans as inferior, but if there really is a difficulty level difference besides the numbers, then yes there will be a consensus that 16 is where competitive raiding is at.
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Kihra's Avatar


Kihra
04.18.2012 , 03:42 PM | #25
I think the question of difficulty is a complicated one. We did the fights on Hard Mode on 8-man on the PTS, and we're now clearing them on 16-man Hard Mode on live. Toth and Zorn feels pretty comparable to me, i.e., not hugely difficult on either difficulty, and the enrage timer isn't much of an issue on either mode.

Firebrand and Stormcaller, however, is *significantly* more difficult on 16-man Hard Mode than on 8-man Hard Mode. It's like a totally different fight. They've made a number of tuning mistakes with the fight that make it vastly more difficult on 16-man.

For example:

(1) The damage on tanks is ramped up significantly. This matters because even with twice as many healers there are still phases of the fight that involve movement (e..g, going to and from the shields). The ramped up damage matters a lot here, since you have to have a lot more coordination, e.g., one healer remaining stationary while the other gets back on the tank, etc.

(2) Double Destruction is serious business. The ticks are doubled on 16-man, which means you have to have coordinated healing assignments for the DD targets. It's also a nightmare if you push Defensive Systems right after the second DD, because you're having to try to keep these people alive while running to the shields. On 8-man this was a complete non-issue, since the ticks weren't going to put the DD targets in immediate danger.

(3) There are 4 shields on 16-man compared to 8-man. This requires a lot more coordination to deal with, since shield damage is based off the number of people standing under it. If one person runs to the wrong shield and/or brushes the wrong shield, you end up blowing it early (oh and guess what, the Mortar Volley damage is higher too).

The shields can also be split on the back and on the side, so your healers can't cross-heal. One of them will typically be out of range of the tank, who is taking way more damage than on 8-man. This is especially problematic as the phase ends, since the tank can eat a huge hit from Stormcaller.

(4) The frontal attacks of Firebrand and Stormcaller are near 1-shots. Any positioning mistakes will result in people getting absolutely creamed. Because twice as many people get caught by positioning mistakes typically compared to 8, this is a case where quadruple damage is unintentionally being dealt.

Things that are a bit easier than 8-man but only slightly:

(1) You can use 3 tanks on 16-man and still meet the enrage. This is important because of how huge the frontal damage from the hovertanks is.
(2) The enrage timer is a bit easier.

Overall, though, this is just the 2nd fight of the instance and there is just no comparison. The difficulty of this fight on 16-man is far far beyond the 8-man level.
A home for busy adults seeking high level PvE in a respectful, mature atmosphere.
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Rex_Irae's Avatar


Rex_Irae
04.18.2012 , 04:17 PM | #26
Lol, I can't believe some people honestly think 8 man is harder than 16 man... Unbelievable.

Eddizel's Avatar


Eddizel
04.18.2012 , 04:36 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Rex_Irae View Post
Lol, I can't believe some people honestly think 8 man is harder than 16 man... Unbelievable.
It isn't even that Rex, it is that they think it is even on par or close.

Eddizel's Avatar


Eddizel
04.18.2012 , 04:47 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by cshouston View Post
And the truth is revealed.

It's just harder to get 16 people to carry their own weight. We're nearly able to run 16 man again, so I suppose the personal debate will end shortly for me and mine, but I still think they're equal in relative difficulty. Since 1.2, there have been changes to Tier 1 content as well. I've run 8 and 16 in EV on two different characters since then. On 8, the trash is a joke, yes. On 16, it hits harder, BUT you have twice as many healers to compensate. People just need to be awake and not treat it like 8 man. In *relative* difficulty, it's the same, you just require more out of more people. Therein lies the difficulty.

That being said, I would never think to diminish the accomplishments of our friends in Condemned, or the folks in Millenium across the pond. I just think that it's unfair to dismiss the accomplishments of an 8 man guild. The content is more demanding and with eight, you can't afford to have one screwing around or not playing well.
I am glad the one thing you took away from my post is my personal opinion of smaller size raiding. Everything else about larger size being harder is fact.

The fact is you could take those 16 people who can carry their own weight, split them into two 8 man's, and they will clear the 8 mans easier. So I don't think that argument has value. A group that can beat the 16 man hard modes will have an easier time with the 8 mans.

We are 3/4 16 hards right now and expect to be 4/4 in a minimal amount of pulls tonight, it is safe to say that more then 1 person making a mistake on these fights during progression was a wipe, so I am sorry but I don't agree with that argument either. Everyone has to play well, in either 16 or 8, to get these kills during progression.

It is nowhere even close to the same difficulty "relatively".

You basically said it yourself! You are asking MORE out of MORE people on 16 man! If that is not the definition of more difficult, I don't know what is. They have to step their game up.

cshouston's Avatar


cshouston
04.18.2012 , 05:06 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Kihra View Post
I think the question of difficulty is a complicated one. We did the fights on Hard Mode on 8-man on the PTS, and we're now clearing them on 16-man Hard Mode on live. Toth and Zorn feels pretty comparable to me, i.e., not hugely difficult on either difficulty, and the enrage timer isn't much of an issue on either mode.

Firebrand and Stormcaller, however, is *significantly* more difficult on 16-man Hard Mode than on 8-man Hard Mode. It's like a totally different fight. They've made a number of tuning mistakes with the fight that make it vastly more difficult on 16-man.

For example:

(1) The damage on tanks is ramped up significantly. This matters because even with twice as many healers there are still phases of the fight that involve movement (e..g, going to and from the shields). The ramped up damage matters a lot here, since you have to have a lot more coordination, e.g., one healer remaining stationary while the other gets back on the tank, etc.

(2) Double Destruction is serious business. The ticks are doubled on 16-man, which means you have to have coordinated healing assignments for the DD targets. It's also a nightmare if you push Defensive Systems right after the second DD, because you're having to try to keep these people alive while running to the shields. On 8-man this was a complete non-issue, since the ticks weren't going to put the DD targets in immediate danger.

(3) There are 4 shields on 16-man compared to 8-man. This requires a lot more coordination to deal with, since shield damage is based off the number of people standing under it. If one person runs to the wrong shield and/or brushes the wrong shield, you end up blowing it early (oh and guess what, the Mortar Volley damage is higher too).

The shields can also be split on the back and on the side, so your healers can't cross-heal. One of them will typically be out of range of the tank, who is taking way more damage than on 8-man. This is especially problematic as the phase ends, since the tank can eat a huge hit from Stormcaller.

(4) The frontal attacks of Firebrand and Stormcaller are near 1-shots. Any positioning mistakes will result in people getting absolutely creamed. Because twice as many people get caught by positioning mistakes typically compared to 8, this is a case where quadruple damage is unintentionally being dealt.

Things that are a bit easier than 8-man but only slightly:

(1) You can use 3 tanks on 16-man and still meet the enrage. This is important because of how huge the frontal damage from the hovertanks is.
(2) The enrage timer is a bit easier.

Overall, though, this is just the 2nd fight of the instance and there is just no comparison. The difficulty of this fight on 16-man is far far beyond the 8-man level.
This goes a lot farther in proving a point than just saying "lol 8 man easy lololol". I appreciate the time that went into it. I stand corrected on several points. I still think 8 man is tuned very well and refreshingly difficult, if not overboard like this post speaks towards for 16. The whole "one person screws up is a wipe" thing applies to both then, I suppose.
* World 3rd Tier Ⅰ Nightmare 16m * World 1st Tier Ⅱ Hard 8m *

Kihra's Avatar


Kihra
04.18.2012 , 05:16 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by cshouston View Post
This goes a lot farther in proving a point than just saying "lol 8 man easy lololol". I appreciate the time that went into it. I stand corrected on several points. I still think 8 man is tuned very well and refreshingly difficult, if not overboard like this post speaks towards for 16. The whole "one person screws up is a wipe" thing applies to both then, I suppose.
I agree that 8-man is tuned correctly. When we originally tested 16-man Toth and Zorn it had some ridiculous overtuning issues. With the feedback from testers, it got retuned and is now very well-balanced compared to 8-man. The problem is later Hard Mode fights didn't really get adequate 16-man testing due to Toth and Zorn being so hard/buggy that they blocked progression, and so similar tuning mistakes on this 2nd fight weren't caught by testers.

I firmly believe 16-man Firebrand/Stormcaller is above the difficulty level they intend (unintentionally). It's still not an incredibly difficult fight, but it's more like an easier Heroic mode WoW boss than like a normal mode WoW boss (and my opinion is that Hard Modes should be closer to the latter).
A home for busy adults seeking high level PvE in a respectful, mature atmosphere.
Kihra - Kinetic Shadow