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Reryn's Avatar


Reryn
04.23.2012 , 08:07 PM | #221
Quote: Originally Posted by Crankyhobo View Post
I am no stranger to hard content; i ran a progression guild after wow's launch; at that time it was coordinating 40 people per raid on Ragnaros. We were in ****** in blues running 12 hour /day progression trying for server and world firsts, we would log off inside the instance to continue raiding the next day. And there were no youtubes videos or strategy articles, You came up with strategies as you went along to the problems you observed. I do understand the rush and drive and satisfaction with all this.

I don't care if they make hard and nightmare twice as hard as it is now; from some of the posts in this thread talking about how easy it is, completing hard mode 4/4 within a week. You guys SHOULD have a challenge because that's what its all about for you.

There's obviously a wide gamut of casualness within 'casual players', but from people i know::
  • You would call them 'baddies', they make mistakes, tunnel vision, have lame gear etc. But they're not unintelligent, they just aren't the type to research how to balance their stats and maximize their rotations etc.
  • Many are real-life friends, colleagues etc, If you want to play with your friends, you need to consider raid balance as much as you can, but, its not simply a matter of 'only raid with capable players', that's contrary to the point of enjoying the experience 'with your friends'
  • They're engineers and managers and housewives, who also want to spend time with their kids, maybe they play to escape from the stress of their day-to-day, maybe they alternate with console games when and if they have time, and most of them play for the 'social aspect', to hang out with their friend who may have moved across the country and experience something together.

Well these players have been playing all the content so far, 4 months in they've done the flash-points and some story-mode EV/KP. Now BW has released a patch, which has awesome new content right? new stuff to do and explore? banners across the launcher and website saying 'check out the cool new content we've made for you', why did they release content? it's to keep players interested in playing the game for a while, so that we keep paying our monthly subscription so they can all remain employed.

Its not a matter of expecting something for nothing, being handed loot for free, its about wanting to have some fun and see some new content, if you put that out of reach and say only really good players can get new content then these people will get bored and stop playing.
Perfectly presented. I try to say stuff like this but it usually comes out as FFFFFUUU BW!
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Council of Seven Vote, come join our democracy of evil!

Reryn's Avatar


Reryn
04.23.2012 , 08:12 PM | #222
Quote: Originally Posted by Hizoka View Post
Sorry but where did this "entitlement" to be able to walk though raiding come from? Before Wrath in WoW you HAD TO BE A GOOD PLAYER to clear any raid. Now people want to have the ability of a drunken monkey playing on acid and still clear all content. Sorry but where is the fun in walking into a raid and never wiping? Raiding should be hard it is the END GAME it is not PvP where just showing up gets you free loot, in raiding you must EARN it though teamwork and good play.


Personally i hope they make things harder so that there is a gear gap in the good PvEers and the bad ones. Only the people who are "sub-par" want easy mode raiding. I am well aware that it is content everyone wants to see, so instead of say "i am bad and can;t do it nerf it for me" become a better player or a better group and conquer the content.
WoW became a huge success when it made all the content and gear accessible.

If the game puts high end gear out of the hands of the regular player, do you think they will still play the game?
ị▀ịị≡▀ị▀╠▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▒
Council of Seven Vote, come join our democracy of evil!

krinaman's Avatar


krinaman
04.23.2012 , 08:20 PM | #223
Quote: Originally Posted by Hizoka View Post
Sorry but where did this "entitlement" to be able to walk though raiding come from?
IDK where does the "entitlement" to hard raid content come from? How is you wanting the difficulty set where you want it different than someone else wanting it set where they want?

Hizoka's Avatar


Hizoka
04.23.2012 , 10:02 PM | #224
Quote: Originally Posted by Reryn View Post
WoW became a huge success when it made all the content and gear accessible.

If the game puts high end gear out of the hands of the regular player, do you think they will still play the game?
it had more growth when Raiding was gated then when they didn't. During BC they has 120% population increase during wrath they had 1%. Which way made their company grow more now?

Valhalyn's Avatar


Valhalyn
04.24.2012 , 12:16 AM | #225
Where did these only "10%" of the playerbase can raid and complete story mode come from? I think most of you are full of **** and lying to prove a point. If that were really happening BW would have already tweaked it. But it's not, the majority of players are finding the raiding engaging and decently balanced. Those of you that fall under that bar need to do some research. And no its not necessary you can ask in game, you can get with a better guild, many things you can do. But sacrificing 10-15 minutes of your time to read about the fights or your class wont kill you. Learn to be nerds.

Most casual gamers arent sticking around because they're casual. They bounce from game to game because they want to find the perfect one balanced around them. But the game is made of many different types of players, and they have to cater to all... when you know the casuals will try it and get hooked and get better, or just leave in a few months anyways, why base the game around them?

eudaemonea's Avatar


eudaemonea
04.24.2012 , 01:34 AM | #226
Here's my take on this. I'm not going to engage in the pissing and moaning fights between the hardcore folks vs the casuals...

We wrapped up Nightmare KP pretty much the night the servers shut down for 1.2 maintenance. We got Nightmare Soa tonight. And in the last 2 weeks we've worked on story mode EC. Our server currently has 5 or 6 guilds that have downed either all or most of story mode. 2 guilds have 1 boss down on hardmode. Granted, we're a low pop server but that seems too low to me in the grand scheme of things.

I'm a healer. What I'm seeing isn't that the mechanics on these fights are over the top. I'm seeing that the fights themselves are unforgiving to people that are not aware of their surroundings. Things that we could heal through in KP/EV (on any difficulty setting) we are unable to necessarily heal through in this new ops. I'm ok with that. Do I like the nerf to healing? Not really... and seeing the content as it stands now I feel that healing should either be un-nerfed (haha) or the dmg on the FIRST BOSS ONLY needs to be nerfed a smidge.

Not a lot mind you. Just a little tiny bit. We run a merc/sorc healer combo and we do fairly well with things but that's in full Rakata (or close) and people that are more serious about progression. I can guarantee you the guild we were in previously with the load of casuals will NOT get this first boss down for quite a while. They were already frustrated with some of the harder difficulty level content in Tier 1. This will make them not want to play. They were already at that point going into the patch, and to be perfectly frank... I haven't seen many of them log in since that first week after 1.2 went live.

Story Mode should give a nice sense of accomplishment when you finish it, not feel like you've been put through the ringer. The average player will not find enjoyment running that operation. And with the healing changes, they won't even have much enjoyment doing nightmare level tier 1 to get the same gear.

For the more serious raiders, it's challenging....and we enjoy it. But I am concerned that both the casual guilds and the casual guildies that get to come in here and there to our own raids, will not stick around and continue paying subs if PvE is their thing.

rebuff the healers a little, tone down the first boss' damage a smidge and I think a lot more people would be comfortable in there.

I WILL say this though... just feedback in general on fights... but I'm REALLY not happy with 2 more fights like Jarg/Sorno where bosses have to die within moments of each other. That's really just kinda boring. Seen it, done it... can we have something new next tier?
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MysteryJoker's Avatar


MysteryJoker
04.24.2012 , 01:47 AM | #227
Quote: Originally Posted by Reryn View Post
WoW became a huge success when it made all the content and gear accessible.

If the game puts high end gear out of the hands of the regular player, do you think they will still play the game?
You seem to have selective memory. WOTLK had a net gain of approximately of 500,000 subscribers. That's 11.5 million to 12 million. From 2010 to present, it's dropped down to 10.3. So two expansions dedicated to the casual player has dropped subscriber count by.... 1.2 million. Those 500,000 casuals that joined, probably off on another game. That's just how casual gamers operate. However, that doesn't explain Burning Crusade which brought subscriber count from 8 million to 11.5 million... What did Burning Crusade correct? It completely ignored the QQ-storm and provided a decent challenge to players where even those with time-constraints could, in time, down the same raids as those that farm them.

The current issue is.... you want it available to you now.... Getting rid of the challenge and essentially toggling godmode. This basically causes players to burn through content exponentially, at which rate the subscriber account drops considerably because you're "bored." How do I know it'll drop considerably? WOTLK & Cataclysm are your examples. And a fun fact about the spike WOTLK subscribers.... they combined Eastern & Western subscriber counts together.

Hxxr's Avatar


Hxxr
04.24.2012 , 03:13 AM | #228
Quote: Originally Posted by eudaemonea View Post
I'm a healer. What I'm seeing isn't that the mechanics on these fights are over the top. I'm seeing that the fights themselves are unforgiving to people that are not aware of their surroundings. Things that we could heal through in KP/EV (on any difficulty setting) we are unable to necessarily heal through in this new ops.
If you can stand in **** and heal through it, ignore mechanics and such nonesense and you are supposed to wipe. This is not a question of casual. This is a matter of just being bad at the game.

The improved visability on effects is almost a guarantee that people will be able to dodge the bullet unless they're half afk.

Quote: Originally Posted by eudaemonea View Post
Do I like the nerf to healing? Not really... and seeing the content as it stands now I feel that healing should either be un-nerfed (haha) or the dmg on the FIRST BOSS ONLY needs to be nerfed a smidge.
No - not all healing was nerfed, 2 of 3 classes were nerfed and one was even buffed a little. So in retrospect this does hint that there might have been a slight bump in healer balance and you want to revert it?

And no to less damage on Toth and Zorn. The 'movment phase' deals not enough damage if anything and healers just didn't fully figure it out yet. For example during Baradium Throw Zorn's tank isn't hit by anything and on HM when the yellow circle is placed on a player the same thing happens - healers have to shift their awareness away from the tanks here. And executing the tank swap quicker is another easy method to reduce the encounter's damage ... use of personal CD for everyone and timing them right ... a new raid means a new phase of learning - otherwise it would be kind of boring.

Quote: Originally Posted by eudaemonea View Post
They were already frustrated with some of the harder difficulty level content in Tier 1. This will make them not want to play. They were already at that point going into the patch, and to be perfectly frank... I haven't seen many of them log in since that first week after 1.2 went live.
If you exclude the buggy railshot on Jarg & Sorno 16 NMM there is no hard content. Most of the fights are tank and spank with minor adds or movement mechanics.
Mechanic wise Karagga and Bonethrasher are the most complex, but at least Karagga is very undertuned when it comes to actual numbers.

Quote: Originally Posted by eudaemonea View Post
Story Mode should give a nice sense of accomplishment when you finish it, not feel like you've been put through the ringer. The average player will not find enjoyment running that operation. And with the healing changes, they won't even have much enjoyment doing nightmare level tier 1 to get the same gear.
The average player seems to just play bad and not be able to communicate, is that what the average player is?
Because designing content for this kind of player will destroy the most loyal playerbase while securing the majority one. Which will kill the game once the next interesting title will hit the stores.

Quote: Originally Posted by eudaemonea View Post
I WILL say this though... just feedback in general on fights... but I'm REALLY not happy with 2 more fights like Jarg/Sorno where bosses have to die within moments of each other. That's really just kinda boring. Seen it, done it... can we have something new next tier?
In order to promote fights with two tanks your options are very limited. If a fight does not have either hard hitting adds, forced tank swaps or multiple bosses you won't want to bring more than one tank and are better off with more healers or damage dealers. Options here are limited. They always were and always will be, since it's the very basic mechanic of a 'holy trinity MMO'.
Looking at the fights (for 8man) thus far:
EV: Robot 1 tank / Gahrj 1 tank / ... everything 1 tank, wich leads to not enough tanks for flashpoints and other content.
KP: Bonethrasher 0 tanks / Jarg & Sorno 2 Tanks for NMM / Crusher 1 Tank + class with taunt for adds / Fabricator 1 Tank + 3 Healers or 2 Tanks or 1 Tank and right-left combination / Karagga 1 Tank
EC: Everything needs two tanks, because Bioware always wanted a 2/2/4 setup - that's also why there are enrage timers everywhere ... so you can't just bring more healers

On a side note ... next big end boss will be 6 bosses at once btw.
Quote: Originally Posted by Rtwozero View Post
Just remember that combat logs only state mathamatical facts. They are not rude or arrogant.

Hxxr's Avatar


Hxxr
04.24.2012 , 03:21 AM | #229
Quote: Originally Posted by Reryn View Post
If the game puts high end gear out of the hands of the regular player, do you think they will still play the game?
The regular player seems to have not heard of movement, gear optimization and has no wipe resistance whatsoever.
Running flashpoints with alts makes this very apperant ... one wipe anywhere and someone rage quits? Relly? More often then not it's their own fault. Or actually putting in 3 minutes of research to figure out what stats you need and realizing that just having the highest available tier of gear isn't enough. The information is all there and it's easily accessed if you stop and think for a moment.

Come to think of WoW ... for one the golden ages was Burning Crusade and not the casual (on these forums this seems to equal the bad) crowd, but the dedicated one are the loyal players. Increase in overall online gaming and gold selling has quite an effect on # of subscribers here. The inclusion of LFR had quite the negative impact on subscribers after seeing that being bad is almost rewarded by this feature.

Yes, there should be an easy raid and I support raids having multiple difficulty settings, but none of them should give away gear for no effort.
Quote: Originally Posted by Rtwozero View Post
Just remember that combat logs only state mathamatical facts. They are not rude or arrogant.

alifaraaz's Avatar


alifaraaz
04.24.2012 , 03:57 AM | #230
After reading this thread and all the other threads, I've decided that there's no point trying to convince these bad players to improve their play to actually kill the bosses - because they can't be bothered. This is why PvP is nice, nobody can complain they just die a lot.

They don't want to become better, they want to content to get to their level so they can kill it with their likewise bad PuG, and get all the nice loot so that they don't have any reason to run the raid again other than gear up and then wait till next content.

I agree with what others said, they will get bored, but that's life. If they want Story mode to literally be a walk in the park,then may aswell let them, atleast they'll pay the bills to generate more high quality raids.
Kazar - Powertech, [Tomb of Freedom Nadd EU]