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hulkweazel's Avatar


hulkweazel
04.23.2012 , 01:51 PM | #211
Quote: Originally Posted by Raeln View Post
Progression is like a staircase. Storymode EV to KP is decent step. Storymode KP to Storymode EC is like having to climb a 6 foot ladder to get to the next step. This will cause a number of 1.1 raiders to reevaluate if TOR's operations are for them or not. While some of the more elitist raiders will not see a problem with that, I personally would rather have a significant portion of the playerbase see the content than not - it ensures that more content will be created in the future.
...except progression was meant to be SM EV --> SM KP --> HM EV --> HM KP --> SM EC. This is the way it's designed, and this is why SM EC drops slightly better loot than HM KP. EV and KP are the same tier of raiding, EC is the next step up.

As for extremely casual groups not being able to finish EC, the content is less than two weeks old. Strategies are still being developed. Not all boss mechanics are even known yet. More than once we've tried to follow a guide, only to realize that they were missing key dynamics of a fight and had to scrap it. I can all but guarantee that even pugs will be able to complete SM EC within a month unless they truly are that uncoordinated. If people just want to complete it without any difficulty, then they don't need to complete it immediately after the content is released, either, since they wouldn't care about progression.

Remulan's Avatar


Remulan
04.23.2012 , 01:53 PM | #212
Quote: Originally Posted by hulkweazel View Post
...except progression was meant to be SM EV --> SM KP --> HM EV --> HM KP --> SM EC. This is the way it's designed, and this is why SM EC drops slightly better loot than HM KP. EV and KP are the same tier of raiding, EC is the next step up.
That is simply not true. According to the people who made the game story mode is supposed to be it's own progression path.

Raeln's Avatar


Raeln
04.23.2012 , 02:43 PM | #213
Quote: Originally Posted by hulkweazel View Post
...except progression was meant to be SM EV --> SM KP --> HM EV --> HM KP --> SM EC. This is the way it's designed, and this is why SM EC drops slightly better loot than HM KP. EV and KP are the same tier of raiding, EC is the next step up.
No, storymode progression was not meant to include hardmode EV/KP. Why on earth would that still be called storymode progression at that point?

Quote:
As for extremely casual groups not being able to finish EC, the content is less than two weeks old. Strategies are still being developed. Not all boss mechanics are even known yet. More than once we've tried to follow a guide, only to realize that they were missing key dynamics of a fight and had to scrap it. I can all but guarantee that even pugs will be able to complete SM EC within a month unless they truly are that uncoordinated. If people just want to complete it without any difficulty, then they don't need to complete it immediately after the content is released, either, since they wouldn't care about progression.
Extremely casual groups will not be able to down Zorn and Toth with consistency prior to nerfs. Pugs will not be making much progress in EC on a widespread basis until the more hardcore guilds are running alt pugs.

My ops group has already downed Zorn and Toth and to quote my raid leader, "storymode Zorn and Toth felt like what hardmode should be". It wasn't QQ, it was just a statement as we moved on deeper into the zone.

Some of you may like very challenging content but there is not enough paying hardcore raiders to keep the lights on in the Operations Design Department. There must be more of the playerbase seeing this content and that is what storymode is for. Yes, storymode needs to be nearly faceroll to keep the "extreme" casual playerbase engaged in the end game. There is hardmode and an upcoming nightmare mode to challenge those that seek more difficult challenges (which also includes my ops group).

Blizzard found this very thing out with Cataclysm.

Leovinus's Avatar


Leovinus
04.23.2012 , 05:01 PM | #214
Quote: Originally Posted by Raeln View Post
No, storymode progression was not meant to include hardmode EV/KP. Why on earth would that still be called storymode progression at that point?



Extremely casual groups will not be able to down Zorn and Toth with consistency prior to nerfs. Pugs will not be making much progress in EC on a widespread basis until the more hardcore guilds are running alt pugs.

My ops group has already downed Zorn and Toth and to quote my raid leader, "storymode Zorn and Toth felt like what hardmode should be". It wasn't QQ, it was just a statement as we moved on deeper into the zone.

Some of you may like very challenging content but there is not enough paying hardcore raiders to keep the lights on in the Operations Design Department. There must be more of the playerbase seeing this content and that is what storymode is for. Yes, storymode needs to be nearly faceroll to keep the "extreme" casual playerbase engaged in the end game. There is hardmode and an upcoming nightmare mode to challenge those that seek more difficult challenges (which also includes my ops group).

Blizzard found this very thing out with Cataclysm.
I agree wholeheartedly. One other thing I'd like to mention is directed at folks who would inevitably complain about storymode people getting awesome gear. Well, Storymode gear is Rakata, which will be not one, but TWO tiers of (set) gear behind the best possible, once NiM comes out. It's practically required for gearing to at least this level be significantly easier as the game ages in order to maintain a recruitment pool.

krinaman's Avatar


krinaman
04.23.2012 , 05:06 PM | #215
Quote: Originally Posted by andrew_b_gross View Post
That's just crazy. I think it's perfectly valid to want a "story mode" where you can kill the bosses and see the content without being a "hardcore" guild, but being able to down every raid boss you encounter in 6 or fewer tries isn't raiding. Players that get frustrated that easily should realize that they don't enjoy raiding (there's nothing wrong with that) and find something else to do wiith their time.
Which brings us back to my other point. If people aren't raiding then the Devs need to make content for those people or they will get bored and quit.

Frankly, I'm fine with either solution. But raiders need to understand that if they want to exclude a large segment of the population then less raids are going to be made.

Iandayen's Avatar


Iandayen
04.23.2012 , 05:07 PM | #216
Can someone please point me exactly to where Bioware stated that story mode will be an easy walk in the park on it's own progression line for people to get free loot from?

Because try as hard as I might - I'm just not seeing that in any way shape or form, anywhere.
Hardpeck - Arsenal Mercenary
Ambient.enjin.com

krinaman's Avatar


krinaman
04.23.2012 , 05:26 PM | #217
Quote: Originally Posted by Iandayen View Post
Can someone please point me exactly to where Bioware stated that story mode will be an easy walk in the park on it's own progression line for people to get free loot from?

Because try as hard as I might - I'm just not seeing that in any way shape or form, anywhere.
Here's the relevant quote

Quote:
Bug-fixing is currently the highest priority for the Operation team. In future Operations (including the new one coming in patch 1.2), Nightmare mode will be made significantly more challenging, designed to tax even the most hardcore. On the flipside, Normal Mode is becoming Story Mode and will be even easier. The idea is that everyone will be able to see the content in Story Mode (right now only 38% of level-50 characters have stepped foot into an Operation), Hard Mode will be the main mode for organized guilds, and only the most elite players will beat Nightmare.
http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/03/09/5-...ublics-future/

Iandayen's Avatar


Iandayen
04.23.2012 , 05:59 PM | #218
that's not a dev statement, that's second hand on a website.

I want first hand.
Hardpeck - Arsenal Mercenary
Ambient.enjin.com

krinaman's Avatar


krinaman
04.23.2012 , 06:19 PM | #219
Quote: Originally Posted by Iandayen View Post
that's not a dev statement, that's second hand on a website.

I want first hand.
Here's a video of the event

http://www.swtormovies.com/movieview.php?id=3145

Otherwise there are numerous transcripts:

Quote:
2:27
ericmusco: 1.2 will introduce a new Operation, Explosive Conflict. Explosive conflict will ship in 1.2 with both Story and Hard difficulty, Nightmare difficulty will follow in a later patch and it is sure to be a challenge for all of you Operation players in the audience.
2:28
ericmusco: You may be asking yourself, what is Story difficulty? We have replaced Normal with Story, which is a difficulty level that has the intention of allowing all players to see our Operation content!
2:29

Hizoka's Avatar


Hizoka
04.23.2012 , 07:41 PM | #220
Sorry but where did this "entitlement" to be able to walk though raiding come from? Before Wrath in WoW you HAD TO BE A GOOD PLAYER to clear any raid. Now people want to have the ability of a drunken monkey playing on acid and still clear all content. Sorry but where is the fun in walking into a raid and never wiping? Raiding should be hard it is the END GAME it is not PvP where just showing up gets you free loot, in raiding you must EARN it though teamwork and good play.


Personally i hope they make things harder so that there is a gear gap in the good PvEers and the bad ones. Only the people who are "sub-par" want easy mode raiding. I am well aware that it is content everyone wants to see, so instead of say "i am bad and can;t do it nerf it for me" become a better player or a better group and conquer the content.