Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Let's STOP the spread of misinformation about operative DPS (high OR low!)

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Scoundrel / Operative
Let's STOP the spread of misinformation about operative DPS (high OR low!)
First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

thecoffeeguy's Avatar


thecoffeeguy
04.20.2012 , 02:13 PM | #61
Quote: Originally Posted by Sookster View Post
The more I pvp as concealment, the more I notice that backstab is doing more damage than hidden strike, for experiment I just used backstab for a few WZ's instead of hidden strike- resolve bar doesn't fill up as quickly, I kill a tad faster especially when doing AB+backstab and I have a tad more energy to spare. The RNG damage range on HS and backstab are huge, sometimes I HS someone for 1100 damage and another for 4500, same goes for backstab but I have yet to go below 2500 on backstab whereas HS barely squeaks by 1K vs some players.
I noticed the same thing on my scoundrel. Shoot FIrst damage varies greatly, where as back blast is fairly consistent. For example, I have seen the following numbers with shoot first:

900-2700

Where as back blast is usually between, 2200-2900.
Granted, im not yet 50.

Prior to 1.2, my shoot first numbers were much closer to what they are now. I feel like there were additional "under the hood" changes to shoot first/hidden strike.

Scorchy's Avatar


Scorchy
04.21.2012 , 02:48 AM | #62
Full Rakata, Black Hole earpiece on my Scoundrel with Concealment (Scrapper) spec:

http://i.imgur.com/lgafn.jpg

On a 7.5 minute parse I'm seeing what everyone else is seeing. Around 950-1100 DPS normal, with stims/relics/adrenals, playing absolutely perfect and behind the target, you can get near or a bit over 1200 DPS:

http://www.fryingtime.com/?filename=...79583offff.txt

I've been telling people to stay away from leveling a scoundrel for now if they don't want to heal. Meanwhile here's a parse from a Sentinel/Marauder on a Nightmare Karagga fight: http://loganalyzer.blacksheeptrooper.../35135/showfgt. Yup. 1742 DPS over 5 minutes on a real fight, with dodge and deflect. Within 5% my butt.

Xaearth's Avatar


Xaearth
04.21.2012 , 02:57 AM | #63
Quote: Originally Posted by Kabaal View Post
The dummies not being able to defend the attacks should be taken into account for a single saber user too, you haven't proved anything.
Quote: Originally Posted by Elear View Post
Offhands don't bump up damage on dummy becuse class that don't use them still can do huge damage?

That makes sense!
I think you both missed the implication of the dev's post.

The reason he specifically picked out dual wielders is because they get a significant penalty to hit chance on their offhand.

In other words: Marauders/Sentinels cannot get their offhand to 100% guaranteed hit against a target with any form of defense.

Compare that to main-hand attacks, which everyone and their noob grandma has enough accuracy at end game to overcome the base defense chance, and you might understand what that poster was getting at.

IMO, this hints at a far deeper problem that I have had suspicions about for some time:
The "metrics" the devs use assumes accuracy and defense are being used in such a way that would be consistent with a playerbase that viewed the two stats as "useful" and/or "meaningful/significant".

In other words, it doesn't matter that the metagame gives a womp rat's behind about accuracy past 110% because no one is stacking defense, the metrics "work" when the system is used "properly", and our refusal to do so is not the dev team's problem.
"The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones;
So let it be with BioWare."
~ SWTOR Update 1.2: Legacy

silvershadez's Avatar


silvershadez
04.21.2012 , 02:58 AM | #64
Any lethality (dirty fighting) parses yet? Would love to see that DPS too.

Malanoth's Avatar


Malanoth
04.21.2012 , 03:05 AM | #65
So, a player blows the Dev dual wield versus training dummy argument out the window... and then I see logs of Op dps that is way more than 5% below what other classes do. So Op DPS sucks then? I'm gearing up full BM through PvP on my Op before I start doing PvE. Does our DPS suck that much that we should go healer?

babykahna's Avatar


babykahna
04.21.2012 , 03:34 AM | #66
im interested to see any lethality/dirty fighting parsers to see if there is any dps difference from concealment which got nerfed. After all the devs said that the "nerfs" to concealment would help with pve damage even if it means less burst in pvp but what im finding is alot of gap filling attacks between knife attacks that hardly do worthwhile damage.

As a concealment pve spec 3/31/7, i'm pulling 1000-1100+ or if crit gods favor, 1200+ dps on bosses like toth in hard mode 16 where as a melee class i stick on that boss full time. I'm fully rakata geared, augmented weapon, random black hole pieces here and there, 39.56% crit chance unbuffed and 74.85% surge. so while im seeing my fellow guildie marauder pull 480-500k damage at the end of the fight on parsers, i'm pulling roughly 130-160k less damage than the marauder. Thats hardly a 5 % gap for me to get over. And yes i've played my class a very long time so i know my rotations in order to give me as much energy as possible throughout the entire fight.

So if anyone could link some lethality parsers, that would be of much interest thanks!

And as for the topic itself, whatever the dev said about marauder dps not being accurate on training dummies...come on...thats such a weak reply. I've seen hundreds of parsers over and over again for many raids. The only thing I can definitively say is that nearly every class can outdps an operative's dps. To be an operative dpser you pretty much need to be perfect with your rotations...and even so with all the game mechanics, it gets disrupted easily. Personally I believe that the fix needed for operative dps lies in their cooldowns and energy costs...

Elear's Avatar


Elear
04.21.2012 , 05:04 AM | #67
Quote: Originally Posted by Xaearth View Post
I think you both missed the implication of the dev's post.

The reason he specifically picked out dual wielders is because they get a significant penalty to hit chance on their offhand.

In other words: Marauders/Sentinels cannot get their offhand to 100% guaranteed hit against a target with any form of defense.

Compare that to main-hand attacks, which everyone and their noob grandma has enough accuracy at end game to overcome the base defense chance, and you might understand what that poster was getting at. :rolleyes
Not really. If you pop by Gunslinger forums you may notice few threads comparing two blasters vs sniper rifle. Conclusion is like that: below 100% snipers deal more damage, at similar, above GS are better. In other words - accuracy is quite important stat for classes with DW.
If you take Sniper and GS(going away from Mara/Sent becasue there is no mirror without dw), pump them both full of power and leave out accuracy, in real-life situation they would do similar damage, with sniper slightly ahead. But on dummy, everyone gets bonus accuracy to cap them for all their attacks. In Sniper case, it's 10%. For GS, it's 33%. Obviously in case they do have some accuracy already bonus is smaller, still, DW classes almost always get bonus stats on dummy. And this inflates their stat budget, and damage as a result.

What Dev said: DW classes gain huge benefit from attacking target that cannot defend, so their damage will be inflated.
What poster said: Not true, here is example of class without DW doing huge damage.

Other words
Dev: This man has sharp stick and may kill you
Poster: Not true, that man has blunt stick and still kills you

DW is giving misinformation - higher damage than really possible. You can't counter this by showing that class without DW can also reach such damage.

Malanoth's Avatar


Malanoth
04.21.2012 , 05:57 AM | #68
Quote: Originally Posted by Elear View Post
Not really. If you pop by Gunslinger forums you may notice few threads comparing two blasters vs sniper rifle. Conclusion is like that: below 100% snipers deal more damage, at similar, above GS are better. In other words - accuracy is quite important stat for classes with DW.
If you take Sniper and GS(going away from Mara/Sent becasue there is no mirror without dw), pump them both full of power and leave out accuracy, in real-life situation they would do similar damage, with sniper slightly ahead. But on dummy, everyone gets bonus accuracy to cap them for all their attacks. In Sniper case, it's 10%. For GS, it's 33%. Obviously in case they do have some accuracy already bonus is smaller, still, DW classes almost always get bonus stats on dummy. And this inflates their stat budget, and damage as a result.

What Dev said: DW classes gain huge benefit from attacking target that cannot defend, so their damage will be inflated.
What poster said: Not true, here is example of class without DW doing huge damage.

Other words
Dev: This man has sharp stick and may kill you
Poster: Not true, that man has blunt stick and still kills you

DW is giving misinformation - higher damage than really possible. You can't counter this by showing that class without DW can also reach such damage.
I get what you're saying and its all very well and all, but lets forget about training dummies for a moment. Looking at the LIVE parses (not just here) and taking into account Operative mechanic restrictions (must be behind target for BS, etc) that affect our DPS aren't you seeing quite a large disparity in the DPS spread? I feckin am.

MadUlk's Avatar


MadUlk
04.21.2012 , 09:10 AM | #69
Quote: Originally Posted by silvershadez View Post
Any lethality (dirty fighting) parses yet? Would love to see that DPS too.
There you go. http://www.torparse.com/a/10570?q=MX...E4MDE1NzkzNHgx

I was unbuffed, in full Rakata, using this spec.
I fell below 60 energy several times, used Adrenalin Probe once and wasted between 3 to 5 TA's due to me using Shiv to late.

Kaijan's Avatar


Kaijan
04.21.2012 , 11:03 AM | #70
Quote: Originally Posted by Elear View Post
What Dev said: DW classes gain huge benefit from attacking target that cannot defend, so their damage will be inflated.
What poster said: Not true, here is example of class without DW doing huge damage.
Actually, he's not arguing that DW isn't giving misinformation at all. He's just saying that the damage discrepancy has very little to do with it as classes without dual wield are still doing significantly more damage than an operative. You're arguing two very different points.
Kailora - Operative - Harbringer
Watch us die - LIVE! Tues/Thurs 7pm-11pm PST