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Let's STOP the spread of misinformation about operative DPS (high OR low!)

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Imperial Agent > Operative
Let's STOP the spread of misinformation about operative DPS (high OR low!)
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Ich_Bin's Avatar


Ich_Bin
04.18.2012 , 05:00 PM | #41
Quote: Originally Posted by Furiasara View Post
Sorry I should have mentioned this. I have a 50 juggernaut alt so I buff with the warrior buff as well as my own in addition to rakata cunning stim and used the rakata power adrenal 1 time during that parse.

I think something to be noted here is that in almost every single post from an operative talking about DPS rotations or anything similar you often hear them say "it could be higher but I messed up my rotation" or "I screwed up and got energy starved" or something similar. I think it just goes to show that operatives, even if capable of X DPS, have such a complex and difficult to sustain rotation that it can all go wrong with just a single out of place ability. With only 1 way to come back from such a mistake (adrenaline probe) DPSing as operative becomes a challenge of fighting your class mechanic rather than fighting the boss.

It's hard to compare us to a class like marauder who effectively cannot starve themselves of their resource like can be done with energy AND can more quickly get into combat to boot. By comparison, as long as a marauder is not as max or 0 resource and is using their most efficient moves on priority, their rotation can't be "messed up" the way ours can.
Yes. This is exactly the reason for why I think that Kaijan's DPS result is a very good reference. He/She stated that the dps could have been slightly bigger if there hadn't been a few small mistakes in the damage rotation. But there never will be an ideal fight where you do not make a single mistake. With this class it's much easier to make a (very costly) mistake if you mess up your rotation than it is with any of the other dps classes.
So the dps result accounts for the fact that the class is more diffult to play and that it leaves more room for mistakes.

Kaijan's Avatar


Kaijan
04.18.2012 , 09:53 PM | #42
Quote: Originally Posted by Ich_Bin View Post
Yes. This is exactly the reason for why I think that Kaijan's DPS result is a very good reference. He/She stated that the dps could have been slightly bigger if there hadn't been a few small mistakes in the damage rotation. But there never will be an ideal fight where you do not make a single mistake. With this class it's much easier to make a (very costly) mistake if you mess up your rotation than it is with any of the other dps classes.
So the dps result accounts for the fact that the class is more diffult to play and that it leaves more room for mistakes.
Heh, who knew that me screwing up could be a good thing =P
Kailora - Operative - Harbringer
Watch us die - LIVE! Tues/Thurs 7pm-11pm PST

APeckenpaugh's Avatar


APeckenpaugh
04.18.2012 , 10:41 PM | #43 Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread. Next  
I wanted to pop in and say two things:

First, I appreciate threads like this, and good job for putting it together.

Second, please be careful using training dummies for DPS tests and comparisons. As contrary to our intentions as it is, training dummies are not as of yet the fully reliable DPS testing resource we want them to be. This is because they cannot dodge or deflect attacks at the moment.

For Operatives, that fact doesn't have much of an impact. However, if you're going to look at Marauder and Sentinel DPS numbers and go "wow, we're nowhere near that," keep in mind that they gain a significant benefit from attacking a target that cannot defend due to their dual wield mechanic. Targets with a 0% defense chance will take significantly more offhand strikes from dual wielders than is typical.

On the subject of training dummy dodge and deflect, we have a fix for it that will show up in a weekly patch in the near future (don't know when off the top of my head). So, keep up the cool thread, but keep a level head about dual wielders on training dummies.

_Scattered_'s Avatar


_Scattered_
04.19.2012 , 02:43 AM | #44
Is it possible marauders are over tuned?

How do operatives compare to the other classes?

The worst dps is doubtful considering the abysmal parses I am seeing from shadows.
Fugue

Ryemfoh's Avatar


Ryemfoh
04.19.2012 , 03:11 AM | #45
After thinking about openers because of this thread, I did the maths for BS and the AB DoT separately and added them to my earlier post.

If you're too lazy to page-back:
Backstab (No BS) - Damage = 2597, DPE = 519.4
Acid Blade DoT - Damage = 2838, DPE = 189.2

This puts the AB DoT slightly above Lacerate on DPE, which means that it is always worth attempting to get more Acid Blades into our rotation (only really valid during opener and after Cloak>HS where it is possible to use BS after the HS without AB and not lose the ArPen buff)
"Adventure, excitement, a Jedi craves not these things" -- Silent Bob

Ich_Bin's Avatar


Ich_Bin
04.19.2012 , 04:51 AM | #46
Quote: Originally Posted by _Scattered_ View Post
Is it possible marauders are over tuned?

How do operatives compare to the other classes?

The worst dps is doubtful considering the abysmal parses I am seeing from shadows.
From the information that I have seen so far it seems that Mercs/Commandos are doing the best dps right now.
I think people are mostly comparing Operative dps to Marauder dps because both classes are melee.

RubbinMyWookie's Avatar


RubbinMyWookie
04.19.2012 , 07:06 AM | #47
I don't trust screenshots. Too many people know how to use photoshop very well.
Emoting in text indicates you have poor communication skills.

SWYgeW91IGNhbiByZWFkIHRoaXMgeW91IGFyZSBuMDBic2F1Y2 UgZGVsdXhlLg==

Thankyjack's Avatar


Thankyjack
04.19.2012 , 09:08 AM | #48
Quote: Originally Posted by subrosian View Post
My proprietary systems indicated that Operative DPS is 20 ~ 30% behind Anni Marauders. In addition, the Marauders provide a raid heal, can spec a short CD interrupt, have better movement, better survival, and provide a bloodlust.

We have removed all DPS Operatives from raiding, and the only thing that saved the Snipers was the raid wall. There's no point in having fragile, low DPS classes. My Operative, my first toon, leveled ONLY FOR PVE, is sitting on the shelf where it will remain, I wish it were otherwise, but I can't possibly sit here as a progression raid leader and ask my raiders to maximize their performance (max your companions, get all datacrons, do your dailies every day on your main and alts, etc) and then sit there on the weakest class in the game asking them to carry me.

All a non-healing Operative does is get carried. If you believe otherwise ("I'm super skilled but somehow magically wouldn't be super skilled at a better class") you're lying to yourself to avoid the reroll.
Give up progression raiding because it's not really for you.

I used to be a progression raider and we never considered the relative dps between classes. We wanted to bring certain players because we knew they would study the fight, learn the fight, and stay alive long enough to down the boss.

Progression raiders know that a dead marauder does less damage than a live OP. We also know that being the first or close to the first to down a boss means having the absolute minimum gear required to beat the enrage timer. In fact, we plan on downing content before people have any real gear. We strive to be first and understand what that really means. It means showing up prepared, knowing the fights, having the right spec, mods, and rotations, staying out of the fire and being willing to wipe for hours, if necessary, to kill a boss.

In short, real front running progression raiders take the player, not the toon.

Errdizzy's Avatar


Errdizzy
04.19.2012 , 04:11 PM | #49
3min test on Operations Dummy with full Rakata gear, self buffed, using 400 biochem stims/adrenals (1200 DPS):
http://www.fryingtime.com/?filename=...st12231322.txt

5min fight where we killed Nightmare Pilgrim, keeping my energy above 80 most of the time and popping Stim Boost every time is was available (still 1200 DPS):
http://www.fryingtime.com/?filename=...0_37_01_692000

3min test on Operations Dummy from Marauder with full Rakata gear, self-buffed, using 400 biochem stims/adrenals (1500 DPS):
http://www.fryingtime.com/?filename=...4_33_33_861000

And I will try to get the logs, but the Marauder was still pulling around 1450 DPS in raid. So yes it's pretty obvious that we are more than 5% behind. And as a result our guild no longer takes Operatives to tight DPS fights. So hopefully this gets fixed soon otherwise I will be quitting the game. Invested a lot of time into this character and don't feel like starting over with a new class. I know we have nice burst damage in PvP, so they might be afraid to make us stronger. But if they simply buff Corrosive Dart it should help us out in PvE as its generally a waste of energy to use in PvP...

Kaijan's Avatar


Kaijan
04.19.2012 , 05:36 PM | #50
Quote: Originally Posted by APeckenpaugh View Post
I wanted to pop in and say two things:

First, I appreciate threads like this, and good job for putting it together.

Second, please be careful using training dummies for DPS tests and comparisons. As contrary to our intentions as it is, training dummies are not as of yet the fully reliable DPS testing resource we want them to be. This is because they cannot dodge or deflect attacks at the moment.

For Operatives, that fact doesn't have much of an impact. However, if you're going to look at Marauder and Sentinel DPS numbers and go "wow, we're nowhere near that," keep in mind that they gain a significant benefit from attacking a target that cannot defend due to their dual wield mechanic. Targets with a 0% defense chance will take significantly more offhand strikes from dual wielders than is typical.

On the subject of training dummy dodge and deflect, we have a fix for it that will show up in a weekly patch in the near future (don't know when off the top of my head). So, keep up the cool thread, but keep a level head about dual wielders on training dummies.
1) Holy crap, a Dev.

2) Very valid point. With the extra DPS the offhand is granting, they're likely to turn out a fair bit higher than what they actually are. Essentially, they're sitting in an optimal situation against the dummy while we're anything but.

I will, however, again state that the main difference in DPS isn't the bugged dummies. The major difference is that the rotation is FAR more forgiving and the energy maintenance is exceptionally more simple than an Operative's. With how completely unforgiving of mistakes our energy and TA is, it's no wonder Mauraders will out damage us--even when the dummies are fixed.
Kailora - Operative - Harbringer
Watch us die - LIVE! Tues/Thurs 7pm-11pm PST