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Let's STOP the spread of misinformation about operative DPS (high OR low!)

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Scoundrel / Operative
Let's STOP the spread of misinformation about operative DPS (high OR low!)
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Hextasy's Avatar


Hextasy
04.16.2012 , 07:00 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Russlem View Post
I like players who do things like this. When it catches on developers nerf content into the ground to stop guilds from doing things like this as nerfing content is easier than class balance.
I don't believe your comment to be true, and I don't see you backing up your comment with proof, but either way it is not his fault developers would decide the easy way out. He did what any sensible hardcore raiding guild would've done, it is exactly what I asserted in the other thread what would happen. It is exactly what I have observed in 25m hardcore raiding in "that other game" (and also witnessed personally when I raided hardcore). Amount of shamans on Paragon 25m Rag HC: 0. Amount of hunters KIN raiders 25m Spine HC: 0. Of course there were hardcore raiding guilds who kept their shaman and hunter in raid. They weren't winners either.

Quote:
Guilds that kick entire classes is far more harmful to subscription retention than class balance issues, so issues like this get addressed faster than class balance. Keep it up, you're making content easier for future patches.
Removed from operations. Learn to read. They are free to reroll, they are free to stay as social, they are probably free to come during farm ops when all are overgeared so the operative DPS can be easily carried. He did not comment about PvP.

As for your nerf comment, almost 4 months after release and they already nerfed KP/EV nightmare due to people being able to get better gear (PvP BM/WH, dailies, and it already gotten easier by the week thanks to people getting better gear anyway). Also because the new ops drops rakata on normal mode.

Finally, I'd severely doubt it if GM of guild says: sorry, your DPS is too low due to being nerfed you are free to reroll to class of the month or stay as social people would be angry at GM instead of the person who designed the game to be this way. Don't shoot the messenger. If their decision was to unsubscribe due to this that is their decision, and we live in a free country. They could try to join an other guild, reroll, stay as social, ...

Ich_Bin's Avatar


Ich_Bin
04.16.2012 , 09:33 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Furiasara View Post
Adding my own results here. I'm mostly Rakata with a few columi level pieces like earpieces/implants. I mostly play as a healer so this is my 'off spec' set of gear

1284 DPS
http://www.fryingtime.com/?filename=...1_05_04_463000
Thanks for sharing. Which buffs did you use? Did you use stim/adrenal/relic?

necroticjon's Avatar


necroticjon
04.16.2012 , 10:30 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by subrosian View Post
My proprietary systems indicated that Operative DPS is 20 ~ 30% behind Anni Marauders. In addition, the Marauders provide a raid heal, can spec a short CD interrupt, have better movement, better survival, and provide a bloodlust.

We have removed all DPS Operatives from raiding, and the only thing that saved the Snipers was the raid wall. There's no point in having fragile, low DPS classes. My Operative, my first toon, leveled ONLY FOR PVE, is sitting on the shelf where it will remain, I wish it were otherwise, but I can't possibly sit here as a progression raid leader and ask my raiders to maximize their performance (max your companions, get all datacrons, do your dailies every day on your main and alts, etc) and then sit there on the weakest class in the game asking them to carry me.

All a non-healing Operative does is get carried. If you believe otherwise ("I'm super skilled but somehow magically wouldn't be super skilled at a better class") you're lying to yourself to avoid the reroll.
Sadly your mostly right but it doesn't mean it is the correct way to handle it. Bioware needs to fix this. I am not abandoning my favorite class and rolling a more raid friendly one because the company fails at game balance.

Russlem's Avatar


Russlem
04.16.2012 , 10:56 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Hextasy View Post
I don't believe your comment to be true, and I don't see you backing up your comment with proof, but either way it is not his fault developers would decide the easy way out. He did what any sensible hardcore raiding guild would've done, it is exactly what I asserted in the other thread what would happen. It is exactly what I have observed in 25m hardcore raiding in "that other game" (and also witnessed personally when I raided hardcore). Amount of shamans on Paragon 25m Rag HC: 0. Amount of hunters KIN raiders 25m Spine HC: 0. Of course there were hardcore raiding guilds who kept their shaman and hunter in raid. They weren't winners either.
There's no elaborate studies done on player retention that are made public. The trend in a game like WoW, however has been towards easier content with the starkest difference between difficulty appear between their hardest and easiest content: Sunwell -> Naxx. From that they built up difficulty until they found a balance and made the most successful expansion in WoW's history. Cataclysm, by comparison started with harder content even in the normal modes. The result was a loss of 1.8 million subs over a year, 15% of their subscriber base.

Paragon isn't a normal hardcore raiding guild, they're a sponsored world competitive guild. If you think you're a member of a guild on par with Paragon, you're misinformed as guilds like that have public images to maintain and would kick you for posting on the forums like you do. Not only that, Paragon doesn't endorse class stacking, they use it as a mechanism of getting a kill a few days earlier than their competitors, not their predominant form of clearing content.

Quote: Originally Posted by Hextasy View Post
Removed from operations. Learn to read. They are free to reroll, they are free to stay as social, they are probably free to come during farm ops when all are overgeared so the operative DPS can be easily carried. He did not comment about PvP.
I can read fine. A raiding guild that kicks you from raids. They are free to be the guild's bootlick. Your opinion on how hardcore guilds actually function is laughable.

Quote: Originally Posted by Hextasy View Post
Finally, I'd severely doubt it if GM of guild says: sorry, your DPS is too low due to being nerfed you are free to reroll to class of the month or stay as social people would be angry at GM instead of the person who designed the game to be this way. Don't shoot the messenger. If their decision was to unsubscribe due to this that is their decision, and we live in a free country. They could try to join an other guild, reroll, stay as social, ...
Actually this is how guilds fall apart. The "hardcore" guild I quoted, doesn't even have SWTOR pics posted on their front page. Its Deathwing. That's all right, SWTORs only been out since December. They were probably busy recruiting to replace all the players they alienated while cancelling raids for non-attendance. Again, your opinion on how hardcore guilds actually function is laughable.

Hextasy's Avatar


Hextasy
04.16.2012 , 11:42 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Russlem View Post
Paragon isn't a normal hardcore raiding guild, they're a sponsored world competitive guild. If you think you're a member of a guild on par with Paragon, you're misinformed as guilds like that have public images to maintain and would kick you for posting on the forums like you do. Not only that, Paragon doesn't endorse class stacking, they use it as a mechanism of getting a kill a few days earlier than their competitors, not their predominant form of clearing content.
Most top guilds are sponsored. What I said were examples. It is easier to get examples from top guilds, and top guilds matter whereas everything after the top 100 doesn't (in this context as they don't play competitive). Paragon is one of the many hardcore raiding guilds. I never said I was currently a hardcore raider in WoW, I went to play that game casual long ago. Paragon, like other hardcore raiding guilds, would indeed class stack if it'd get them the kill earlier:

Quote:
Do you feel that all classes are good enough to do 8/8HM or is class stacking still helping?

Diivil: "Certain classes are always better in special situations than others but after the recent nerfs all classes are good enough. Class stacking is obviously always helpful but that doesn't mean it's required and it has most effect during progress raids anyway when you have to get the absolutely best performance out of the raid."
And:
Quote:
To Kruf and Devai, how has the hunter class changed this tier in terms of relevance to progression and now, farms?

deva: "I think that hunters should have been buffed from the start, everybody knows that hunters doesn't scale that good with gear and all the melees got 10% AP buff including rogues and warriors who was already doing insane damage. And all the casters in our raidcomp got legendaries. Blizzard overlooked hunters cause they were strong on t11 and they weregood in t12(but not strong), and they actually tought that hunters could magically do fine in this instance too while buffing other classes, well they were wrong. If you have checked worldoflogs you know hunter wasn't that strong in the end of firelands and i dont see any reason why they didn't buff hunters too... This tier was only time i felt that i didn't want to play my hunter and all, because i felt like i wasn't carrying my weight and that gives me feeling that i just wanna vomit. The beginning of the "farm" of Dragonsoul i actually tought just quiting cause my class was absolutely **** and it wasn't fun to play at all, but then 1 month late my prayers were answered and we got buffed. Was actually fun to play on first farm raid after buffs cause i could actually compete on dps!!"
Precisely what I said, except that he did not reroll. He waited, and almost quit.

Source: http://manaflask.com/en/article/1571...-amp-a-answers

And about class stacking: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1920717229

I'm sure you are able to use some braincells and put marauder/sentinel raid CD into context.

Quote:
Actually this is how guilds fall apart. The "hardcore" guild I quoted, doesn't even have SWTOR pics posted on their front page. Its Deathwing. That's all right, SWTORs only been out since December. They were probably busy recruiting to replace all the players they alienated while cancelling raids for non-attendance. Again, your opinion on how hardcore guilds actually function is laughable.
You know, entire guilds quit WoW and switched to SWTOR. People are bored with DS, too. If you got a few people in your 10m guild quit to SWTOR you have a big problem if you're playing semi hardcore or better.

Crittlesticks's Avatar


Crittlesticks
04.16.2012 , 11:49 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Furiasara View Post
First of all, so many people are posting their supposed numbers but either aren't providing screenshot proof or aren't attacking the proper OPERATION test dummy. If you are attacking any other test dummy, you ARE NOT getting an accurate reading of how much DPS you are truly capable of.
Plenty of DPS parsers have been posted validating the "supposed" numbers on the forum post I made that you linked to in your original post. If you really want me to post some screenshots then I can take you some when I get home today, but I kind of see it as a non-issue since other operative have posted screen shots with numbers that almost mirror the results that I was achieving.

If you really think these numbers are not tested on the operation test dummies, then you might be in denial, or just upset that you are not able to pull the same numbers.

Perhaps your gear needs to be tweaked with the correct mods / enhancements? Or your DPS rotation needs work, either way your passive aggressive disbelief does not help anybody, nor do I see you posting any numbers at all for that matter. Just the same old crap I see everyday, no helpful information, just links to shadowpriest and other WoW affiliated theory crafting sites.

This is not world of warcraft, the numbers are different. World of Warcraft theory crafting is not a constant that you can base all future MMO theory crafting off of.

Agonisis's Avatar


Agonisis
04.16.2012 , 01:40 PM | #27
Could one of y'all post the rotation you are using?

Also are there any numbers on the Legacy PVP dummies?

Crittlesticks's Avatar


Crittlesticks
04.16.2012 , 01:59 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Agonisis View Post
Could one of y'all post the rotation you are using?

Also are there any numbers on the Legacy PVP dummies?
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=409392

Here are the rotations I was using for concealment and lethality. The DPS being pulled from each spec is also listed in the post.

The misinformed OP was trying to bash the thread, claiming their were not screenshots posted, yet as you can see from this thread, those numbers are achievable and the OP just has a very weak understanding of the class.

Russlem's Avatar


Russlem
04.16.2012 , 02:08 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Hextasy View Post
Most top guilds are sponsored. What I said were examples. It is easier to get examples from top guilds, and top guilds matter whereas everything after the top 100 doesn't (in this context as they don't play competitive). Paragon is one of the many hardcore raiding guilds. I never said I was currently a hardcore raider in WoW, I went to play that game casual long ago. Paragon, like other hardcore raiding guilds, would indeed class stack if it'd get them the kill earlier:.
Paragon is not like other hardcore raiding guilds. They are a world-class professional raiding community. By your definition only .01% of raiding guilds (not all guilds, just RAIDING guild) qualify as hardcore raiding guilds. Developers NEVER balance classes in PvE based around what this immeasurably small minority of players does because it is utterly non-representational of how regular hardcore raiding guilds function. Most TOP guilds are sponsored. That's because they represent the top 20 guilds out of 12 million players. They are hardcore professionally, not to be confused with regular hardcore guilds.

Also: "Certain classes are always better in special situations than others but after the recent nerfs all classes are good enough. Class stacking is obviously always helpful but that doesn't mean it's required and it has most effect during progress raids anyway when you have to get the absolutely best performance out of the raid."

Did you not read the article you cited or were you just trusting no one would read it? Like I said, Paragon might class stack to get a world first kill, but its not their predominant method of clearing content.

I can ignore everything else you've said because you're a poser who doesn't have a clue how competitive raiding works.

Kaijan's Avatar


Kaijan
04.18.2012 , 02:12 AM | #30
Fully buffed with stim (no adrenal), 4pc Rakata, 1 Columi, a few BM pieces because I like the stats (ear/implants). Also, I screwed up the rotation a few times (around 150 seconds and at 250-300 I was low on Energy because of another screw up) so the DPS is lower than it could be, but in an Operation it's likely that even this is a bit high.
Spec: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#401McZGIrRdzMdhoZhM.1 (it's /almost/ optimal, but I like the TA gen and faster heal on KI in Ops. Super useful.)
Parse: http://www.fryingtime.com/?filename=..._58_658867.txt

Overview:
Duration - 5min
Damage - 352,694
DPS - 1175

Maurader (guildie, full buffs, stim, and likely adrenal as he's a Biochem, and equivalent gear)
Duration - 5min
Damage - 422,519
DPS - 1389.5

Conclusion:
That doesn't look like 5% to me. Also, energy is annoying to hold on to, especially in the initial burst, but later in the fights, the laceration/shiv rotation helps maintain energy at 70-80, which is certainly nice. I just wish the AB+BS 20 energy hit wasn't so noticeable.
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