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Let's STOP the spread of misinformation about operative DPS (high OR low!)

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Scoundrel / Operative
Let's STOP the spread of misinformation about operative DPS (high OR low!)
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Ahebish's Avatar


Ahebish
04.29.2012 , 09:11 PM | #141
Can we start seeing some parsing of PVP damage numbers now? Since PVP is entirely seperate from PVE?

Despite the impressive 1400 DPS in PVE while marauders are pulling 1800 is far from impressive to me.

I think there is enough drivel about PVE DPS parses I'd like to see some PVP parses now.

That is if it's not to much trouble to understand PVP is also a part of the game not just PVE.

Kaijan's Avatar


Kaijan
04.29.2012 , 11:12 PM | #142
Quote: Originally Posted by Ahebish View Post
Can we start seeing some parsing of PVP damage numbers now? Since PVP is entirely seperate from PVE?

Despite the impressive 1400 DPS in PVE while marauders are pulling 1800 is far from impressive to me.

I think there is enough drivel about PVE DPS parses I'd like to see some PVP parses now.

That is if it's not to much trouble to understand PVP is also a part of the game not just PVE.
How would that be helpful? And it's great that you think 50% of this game is drivel, but as far as I'm concerned, parses for PvP combat would be pretty much drivel to me. PvP is so subjective based on other players and their gear that a PvP parse wouldn't be very helpful.
Kailora - Operative - Harbringer
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KyoMamoru's Avatar


KyoMamoru
04.30.2012 , 01:01 AM | #143
Quote: Originally Posted by Ahebish View Post
Can we start seeing some parsing of PVP damage numbers now? Since PVP is entirely seperate from PVE?

Despite the impressive 1400 DPS in PVE while marauders are pulling 1800 is far from impressive to me.

I think there is enough drivel about PVE DPS parses I'd like to see some PVP parses now.

That is if it's not to much trouble to understand PVP is also a part of the game not just PVE.
I don't have the PVP dummy to parse with right now [500k I'm not spending right now due to changing mods], and there is very little room for comparison for it, since most people aren't posting PVP parses. Also, Marauders are really parsing around ~1600-1650 without using Blood Thirst/Adrenals/Relics. I'll have a screen shot soon of me doing my stuff in my better gear set with me hitting 1500 dps. Once I accomplish that, we'll be within 6.25~9.09% of their DPS. I'll also have to do a run with someone doing Blood Thirst, and me doing Adrenals to compete with their top end [pop everything] parses.

Right now, my chief concern is getting my PVE damage as high as possible, since many Operatives are being told to respec to healers by guilds, or they are abandoning the class completely. I'm trying to show that we aren't a miserable PVE class. In PVP, I've never been a fan of running Concealment, since I find that the time you spend out of combat in stealth really, really hurts your ability to help the team. I normally run a Medicine/Lethality Hybrid when it's PVP.

If I can get to the maximum damage that we can do in PVE, then we can start looking at actual suggestions that are necessary for the class. I'd hate for us to get buffs that make us the next FOTM. If we had begged for buffs when this thread first started, and actually received them, we'd be beyond Marauders at the moment in PVE dps. When it comes to PVP, Concealment if fundamentally flawed at the moment. Too much of the damage is tied to Hidden Strike/Back Stab and thus Stealth. This causes the class to -cower- to attempt to go back into stealth for a minimum of eight seconds. Since they are fighting as few as targets as they can [to drop out of combat], they are deprived of AOE damage, ranged attacks, and so forth.

Bazzoong's Avatar


Bazzoong
04.30.2012 , 08:16 AM | #144
I`d really like to see a dps comparison over 6min on a dummy by a marauder and an operative, both in "high end" gear and with all buffs and all consumables.

If anyone could do that it would be awesome.

(edit) please let`s keep this a pve thread, damage per second is not a reasonable concept for pvp.
Ye can still type while yer stunned.

Ahebish's Avatar


Ahebish
04.30.2012 , 08:25 AM | #145
Quote: Originally Posted by Kaijan View Post
How would that be helpful? And it's great that you think 50% of this game is drivel, but as far as I'm concerned, parses for PvP combat would be pretty much drivel to me. PvP is so subjective based on other players and their gear that a PvP parse wouldn't be very helpful.
True enough, but a DPS parse in PVE doesn't show the class imbalance issues that is the ultimate cause of our class getting nerf'd to a useless state.

I'm sorry but 1400 DPS is laughable and I find it insulting people think it's good by comparison to marauders, sorcs, and jug DPS. They would understand the class balance issues as it relates to our nerf's based on damage spikes and DPS since the class was originally nerf'd because of PVP NOT PVE!

Sorry if I was trying to contribute an ignored aspect of the game by people who never play that much of the game.

Unlike people like me who have done 16man NM raids just as much as I PVP.

None of the DPS parses in here have impressed me in the slightest when it came from a concealment.

Ahebish's Avatar


Ahebish
04.30.2012 , 08:30 AM | #146
Quote: Originally Posted by Bazzoong View Post
I`d really like to see a dps comparison over 6min on a dummy by a marauder and an operative, both in "high end" gear and with all buffs and all consumables.

If anyone could do that it would be awesome.

(edit) please let`s keep this a pve thread, damage per second is not a reasonable concept for pvp.
Baz I never ever had a problem with you... and I'm not advocating them not to fix PVE DPS. But I'm advocating they fix both PVP and PVE.

The 2 go hand in hand.

So many people refused my idea of seperating the 2 systems to make the management of class balance between the 2 systems much easier and indepdent of eachother, that if we are going to do DPS parsing, we need a thread for PVP DPS parsing as well.

Remember it was a PVP nerf that screw'd up the PVE dps parse... so a fix to PVE dps would unnerf PVP and there are WAY MORE people who would have a problem with that than this thread being blatently bias'd.

If you want to know what my suggestion was I'll PM it to you... but to put it simply here's the responses I got, "I'm to lazy to read the skills screen. I die in PVP when I try to read the debuff." Basically it translates to lazy people who want to be spoonfed everything without having to make an honest effort to understand the mechanics or their class.

This is exactly what lead to this thread. Laziness and L2P.

This thread wouldn't even be here if it wasn't for the consecutive nerf's to our class over the last 5 patches. Even more so if people took the time and effort to undestand what my mechanic change suggestion would do for all classes not just ours in both PVE and PVP. But again people are to lazy to put that much effort in. Which is the equivalent of potty training a toddler.

Ahebish's Avatar


Ahebish
04.30.2012 , 08:42 AM | #147
Anyone remember the post about how George Z said Concealment was within 5% of marauders?

Taking your PVE DPS parse.

I've seen a few mars who posted 1800 DPS on a raid boss. While concealments posting 1400.

Let's do the math shall we?

X = what % of marauder dps is concealment dps

(1400 / 1800 * 100) = X
X = 77% (rounded)

100 - X = Difference in damage (%) between a given marauder and a given concealment both in rakata gear.

100 - 77 = 23

23% less DPS in the same gear on the same raid level boss compared to a marauder.

That's how I read DPS parses, I don't care about all the misc drivel in between.

23% is not within 5% of a Marauder is it?

Now do you want to know why?

Because there were additional nerfs to concealment in 1.2 that most people didn't even think about.... and I didn't discover until recently.

In total the DPS spec had ~9 nerfs in 1.2 alone. Most of which were posted publically while the rest were either ill considered or blatent stealth nerf's Bioware was hoping people didn't pick up on.

I refuse to list them publically msg me in a PM and I can list them for you.

KyoMamoru's Avatar


KyoMamoru
04.30.2012 , 08:44 AM | #148
Quote: Originally Posted by Ahebish View Post
I'm sorry but 1400 DPS is laughable and I find it insulting people think it's good by comparison to marauders, sorcs, and jug DPS.
As I've already stated, my gear isn't min/maxed currently for DPS. Once I make a few changes, based on the previous results of my parses, I already know I'll break 1500 dps. Right now, I've been observing the other threads that have parsing data, and the only class that is easily breaking that barrier [and the 1600 one] is Marauders. Most parses [for classes not named Marauder] that have been released when following the same guidelines that I am [no adrenal/click relic] are producing 1200-1500 dps.

Quote:
Sorry if I was trying to contribute an ignored aspect of the game by people who never play that much of the game.

Unlike people like me who have done 16man NM raids just as much as I PVP.
I do all content in the game as well. My main focus is attempting to get to the highest level of DPS possible by an Operative.

Quote:
None of the DPS parses in here have impressed me in the slightest when it came from a concealment.
I don't recall seeing Lethality parse higher than Concealment yet. At the moment, Concealment is our highest dps option in PVE. A Lethality Sniper posted a parse achieving 1424 dps, and I'm certainly beyond that in concealment. I know it's easy to whine and complain, but right now, Marauders are -over performing- far beyond everyone else based on parsing data. If we measure ourselves against them, we're going to lose, every time. When we start to look at the other classes, we're not as abysmal as everyone believes.

Right now, Operatives are the hardest class to do PVE DPS with, and in PVP, we have significant issues with our concealment spec. All I can do right now is find out just how high I can dps in PVE, because due to the changes to PVP itemization, it is impossible to reverse the itemization of the gear until you've grinded full War Hero. The great news is that it prevents other classes from being fully optimized.

In regards to your second post, a real time fight is different than on a dummy. Once you factor in armor reduction, blood thirst(s), adrenals, and so forth, damage naturally goes higher. A common boss to post high numbers on is Karagga, due to the adds that spawn which allow for even greater inflated numbers. So, in order to remove all of that from the equation, I've chiefly only observed parses on the Operation Dummy, that are done without the aid of others or raid wide buffs.

Ahebish's Avatar


Ahebish
04.30.2012 , 08:47 AM | #149
I never said lethality is where it needs to be... lethality is a seperate animal all together.

Ahebish's Avatar


Ahebish
04.30.2012 , 08:51 AM | #150
The thing I want to avoid the most is the wow mentality for parsing. I'm already against it to begin with.

But people need to focus on single target class on class DPS parsing for PVP. A target dummy won't show you that.

A raid buffed player will not show you in controlled means what those numbers are realistically going to be.

That is the problem with wow DPS parsing. People claimed I have 100k DPS... I said oh great, 10 man or 25man.. they said 25 man... I said now what's your single target solo no buffs same relative gear. They immediately got quiet after I told them what I would get on a class with the same energy system as a concealment operative.

That's the mentality I want people to be VERY careful about when they consider DPS parsing. I'm not saying don't do it... I'm just saying be realistic and practical about it.