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Let's STOP the spread of misinformation about operative DPS (high OR low!)

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Scoundrel / Operative
Let's STOP the spread of misinformation about operative DPS (high OR low!)
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VulcanLogic's Avatar


VulcanLogic
04.25.2012 , 02:02 AM | #101
Quote: Originally Posted by Fallenturtle View Post
I just want to point out a key point in your logic. in the typical 8 man raid, you have 4 slots for dps with the new raid system. You are almost NEVER going to have the mob fully debuffed, or have the right group buff makeup outside of class buffs gained from legacy and stims. Groups are never going to be perfect. like our rotations. Why plan for the ideal situations when the ideal situations only happen once in a blue moon.
Well, there will be times in 8 man raids where there is no marauder or sentinel, and the DPS will be slightly lower. There may even be some groups without an armor debuff, but with the legacy class buffs your group is to blame for not having them covered. 8 mans can be balanced for lack of utility that a 16 can bring, but if you buff a class, any class, to make up for that, you're going to run into problems in the 16 man raids which should have everything covered (or they're doing it wrong).

Once in a blue moon is a bit of a stretch, considering my sith side 8 man group always has everything covered. ALWAYS. Quite the opposite of "never".
Yo. Droid companions need an operations vendor, too. My extra coms have to go somewhere, and I'd prefer SCORPIO to Kaliyo.

brezman's Avatar


brezman
04.25.2012 , 02:17 AM | #102
The general consensus of my guild/server is that operative dps is terrible. I do not agree this to be the case but I do believe there is greater than a 5% disparity between operative dps and the higher dps classes (in perfect operation conditions). While I do not have any parses to prove this, the lack of a gap closer, stricter rotation/resource systems and greater positional requirements for operatives make the disparity even larger.

Although my operative mainly raids as a healer, I have conducted my own tests as dps on a training dummy (with no avoidance on the dummy, my full rakata/black hole [with little alacrity] healing gear is viable for dps testing). I have found the following (with full class buffs, but no boss debuffs):
  • Concealment and Lethality are competitive with each other though would be easily outperformed by other classes
  • I can pull around 1250 as concealment and 1200 dps as lethality
  • Lethality's rotation is more difficult and would be even more difficult in operation conditions becuase of lackluster dot tracking on boss targets
  • Lethality would perform better on certain fights due to greater array of ranged attacks

What would improve the disparity? According to my observations, introducing so form of gap closer (such as a sprint or rogue shadowstep in wow) and/or a small increase in damage of a common spell between skill trees (eg. shiv, backstab or corrosive dart) and/or relaxing positional requirements (such as relaxing the dependence on backstab in the rotation or removing the requirement to be behind the target).

Remember when uploading logs on training dummys that combat does not end immediately, try to finish your full rotation upon the expiration of your dots, otherwise dps values will lower. Cloaking Screen does not end combat if dots are still running.

I will try to upload logs when I am able to test dps again.
Master Dar'nala <Remnants>
Brezmany - 50 Operative
Brezman - 50 Sorcerer
Brezmano - 50 Juggernaut

Kaijan's Avatar


Kaijan
04.25.2012 , 02:24 AM | #103
Quote: Originally Posted by brezman View Post
Remember when uploading logs on training dummys that combat does not end immediately, try to finish your full rotation upon the expiration of your dots, otherwise dps values will lower.
headed to bed, but thought I'd comment on this. I usually just hit cloaking screen the moment I want combat to end so I can get an accurate read.
Kailora - Operative - Harbringer
Watch us die - LIVE! Tues/Thurs 7pm-11pm PST

KyoMamoru's Avatar


KyoMamoru
04.25.2012 , 02:39 AM | #104
Quote: Originally Posted by KyoMamoru View Post
Parse + Gear Shot: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3843382/stuff/OperativeDPS.jpg
Damage Graph: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3843382/stuff/longgraph.jpg
Log: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3843382/stuff/keitsudpslog.txt

I didn't have the Sorc Buff so it is somewhat lower than it should have been. There were a few mistakes as well, as you'll see on the long graph where my dps dropped due to me getting distracted. I also did not break Combat every two minutes to get a Hidden Strike. I'm still using a BM rifle, Ears, and Implants.
Same character, but I moved my gear around a bit, and I had the Sorc Buff this time. The end result? 1368 dps.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3843382/stuff/Dpskeitsu2.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3843382/stuff/dpslog2.txt
http://www.fryingtime.com/?filename=dpslog2.txt

KyoMamoru's Avatar


KyoMamoru
04.26.2012 , 12:36 AM | #105
I'm bumping this because I just broke a barrier I didn't think I'd be able to do so soon on my Operative. After a lot of thought on my rotation/gear, I've managed to barely hit 1401 dps. I am still leaving DPS on the table, since I cannot break combat to Hidden Strike three during a five minute parse against the dummy. It's very possible that I'm actually capable of hitting 1450.

Image: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3843382/stuff/Dpskeitsu1401.jpg
Log: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3843382/stuff/Dpslog3.txt
Parse: http://www.fryingtime.com/?filename=Dpslog3.txt

brezman's Avatar


brezman
04.26.2012 , 01:57 AM | #106
Quote: Originally Posted by KyoMamoru View Post
I'm bumping this because I just broke a barrier I didn't think I'd be able to do so soon on my Operative. After a lot of thought on my rotation/gear, I've managed to barely hit 1401 dps. I am still leaving DPS on the table, since I cannot break combat to Hidden Strike three during a five minute parse against the dummy. It's very possible that I'm actually capable of hitting 1450.

Image: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3843382/stuff/Dpskeitsu1401.jpg
Log: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3843382/stuff/Dpslog3.txt
Parse: http://www.fryingtime.com/?filename=Dpslog3.txt
What does this extra thought on your rotation and gear involve?
Master Dar'nala <Remnants>
Brezmany - 50 Operative
Brezman - 50 Sorcerer
Brezmano - 50 Juggernaut

Kaijan's Avatar


Kaijan
04.26.2012 , 01:58 AM | #107
While I'm happy that you broke that barrier (and putting your log into fryingtime you hit 1412, so not sure which is more accurate), I notice that you did it by opening with Orbital strike before combat begins and having Stim Boost already in effect (both of which /might/ happen but probably won't, considering that tanks rarely ask the operative if she's all ready to go). Do you think that was the primary contributor to your increased dps?

So what priority order are you working at, if you've changed things up? I notice that you didn't use any explosive probes. Did that help? Also, your last parse picture didn't display your tech stats; did you move anything from your second?
Kailora - Operative - Harbringer
Watch us die - LIVE! Tues/Thurs 7pm-11pm PST

KyoMamoru's Avatar


KyoMamoru
04.26.2012 , 02:55 AM | #108
Quote: Originally Posted by brezman View Post
What does this extra thought on your rotation and gear involve?
Mostly, it was about how far I was willing to push my energy with the character, and how I was speccing my Lethality. Before I was doing 2 points in Microbes, but now I'm splitting it with one in the increased duration, and one in the Microbes. This allows for me to have more energy over the duration and more attacks, which adds up over time. 289 seconds is 20 applications of Poison Dart, but with the talent it's 16. This saves me 80 energy, and 4 global cool downs for other attacks. The other thought was that I didn't realize how great Orbital Strike is, as long as I'm applying dots before the cast time. OS takes two global cooldowns to complete, and so as long as I'm doing Back Stab [Acid Blade] + Poison Dart before casting, during a period where my shiv is on Cool down, it works out for a dramatic increase in Dps. OS produces 3 hits that average at 2482 damage. That's greater than anything I can put out at two global cool downs with Backstab on cool down.

I'm actually about to change my set bonus to two pieces of Field Tech, to allow me to have an extra hit of OS for each cast. Assuming the exact same dps numbers as my latest parse, this would provide an additional 12,410 damage, or yield 1,459.92 dps. This isn't including the loss of dps from 3 hidden strikes + acid blades, which should yield 12000 extra damage [not counting the armor penetration they'd have], or 1501 dps. I'm missing ~80 cunning due to gear not being full Rakata [BM Implants, Bm Rifle, and my Chest isn't Rakata.] I'm going to work hard this weekend to improve my gear more.

Quote: Originally Posted by Kaijan View Post
While I'm happy that you broke that barrier (and putting your log into fryingtime you hit 1412, so not sure which is more accurate), I notice that you did it by opening with Orbital strike before combat begins and having Stim Boost already in effect (both of which /might/ happen but probably won't, considering that tanks rarely ask the operative if she's all ready to go). Do you think that was the primary contributor to your increased dps?
Training dummies are perfect world situations, unfortunately. However, this is also what we're judging other classes [Marauders mostly] off as well. In PVE, there are usually enough trash mobs up [Bar Tenders <3] that can provide me with Stim Boost. My tank is also always waiting for the Sniper and myself to prepare our Orbital Strikes before he initiates combat, since he knows it helps with enrage timers, and allows us to all get into a better position. So though I'm getting the OS and perfect position from the dummy at all times before combat starts, I'm also losing out on Hidden Strike + Acid Blade twice within the first 10 seconds, and then once every two minutes to come. The good news is, the damage was sustainable over the course of five minutes. Also, on the positional note, I find that with the added 3 seconds to Back Stab, it's easier for me to get towards the '***' of an opponent since I'm doing less of them a fight.

Quote:
So what priority order are you working at, if you've changed things up? I notice that you didn't use any explosive probes. Did that help? Also, your last parse picture didn't display your tech stats; did you move anything from your second?
Shiv [Try to keep TA up at all times]-> [Acid Blade] Back Stab -> Poison Dart -> Orbital Strike -> Rifle Shot - > Shiv -> Lacerate, etc.

I blow through as much energy as I can at the start of the fight, and pop Adrenaline Probe as soon as I dip to 20 energy, where I'll do a Rifle Shot or two. I also continue to push my energy curve during the next two minutes to where by the time Adrenaline Probe comes around, I'm back at 20 energy.

I save Explosive Probe for situations where I am forced to be a ranged DPS, so it is not part of my normal rotation. I find it is much better served during periods where I'm forced by mechanics to be at a range from the boss. I know I could probably get a few more points of DPS for using it, but I don't want to push my rotation out of the real world. Furthermore, it isn't supported by any talents that we have, which makes the energy cost a high for a rotation ability.

My Tech damage is currently at 812.8, the parse before that was at 804.2.

Ryemfoh's Avatar


Ryemfoh
04.26.2012 , 04:38 AM | #109
Quote: Originally Posted by KyoMamoru View Post
Mostly, it was about how far I was willing to push my energy with the character, and how I was speccing my Lethality. Before I was doing 2 points in Microbes, but now I'm splitting it with one in the increased duration, and one in the Microbes. This allows for me to have more energy over the duration and more attacks, which adds up over time. 289 seconds is 20 applications of Poison Dart, but with the talent it's 16. This saves me 80 energy, and 4 global cool downs for other attacks.
I believe technically 2 in Microbes is higher DPS per application, but as you say, having the points split 1 and 1 makes energy management a little easier and free's up 1 GCD every 5 applications.

Quote: Originally Posted by KyoMamoru View Post
The other thought was that I didn't realize how great Orbital Strike is, as long as I'm applying dots before the cast time. OS takes two global cooldowns to complete, and so as long as I'm doing Back Stab [Acid Blade] + Poison Dart before casting, during a period where my shiv is on Cool down, it works out for a dramatic increase in Dps. OS produces 3 hits that average at 2482 damage. That's greater than anything I can put out at two global cool downs with Backstab on cool down.

I'm actually about to change my set bonus to two pieces of Field Tech, to allow me to have an extra hit of OS for each cast.Assuming the exact same dps numbers as my latest parse, this would provide an additional 12,410 damage, or yield 1,459.92 dps.
I posted numbers a few pages back which indicated the strength of OrbS .. it was much higher than I thought it would be as well, and definitely should be used on cooldown (I think you could have squeezed an extra 4 casts in). I must admit that I'm still finding it difficult to weave into my rotation effectively though.

Quote: Originally Posted by KyoMamoru View Post
This isn't including the loss of dps from 3 hidden strikes + acid blades, which should yield 12000 extra damage [not counting the armor penetration they'd have], or 1501 dps. I'm missing ~80 cunning due to gear not being full Rakata [BM Implants, Bm Rifle, and my Chest isn't Rakata.] I'm going to work hard this weekend to improve my gear more.
Hidden Strike on its own isn't actually looking great, but the AB DoT applications are worth the energy hit on HS.

Quote: Originally Posted by KyoMamoru View Post
Shiv [Try to keep TA up at all times]-> [Acid Blade] Back Stab -> Poison Dart -> Orbital Strike -> Rifle Shot - > Shiv -> Lacerate, etc.
Plugging in your Corrosive Dart numbers, it looks like it's sitting at ~173 DPE - this still puts it behind Orbital Strike and Lacerate in priority. I've been trying out only using Dart when I have an open filler slot and no poison DoT up (AB not up) and I have a TA to Lacerate, but don't have enough data yet (not enough time ingame with my current workload )

Quote: Originally Posted by KyoMamoru View Post
I blow through as much energy as I can at the start of the fight, and pop Adrenaline Probe as soon as I dip to 20 energy, where I'll do a Rifle Shot or two. I also continue to push my energy curve during the next two minutes to where by the time Adrenaline Probe comes around, I'm back at 20 energy.
It is more effective (in theory) to blow your AP at ~60e while you have all your cooldowns coming up. I believe the ideal opener (hadn't previously considered pre-cast OrbS) is HS* > Shiv > Lac > OrbS (+AP) > BS (+AB) > Shiv** > etc

* Obviously you pre-load AB so you start on 100e. Also, don't use Stim Boost until either your BS (if Lac procs) or your 2nd Shiv - otherwise you will cap during the OrbS cast.
** I Shiv here to ensure I don't lose a TA stack. You can't pre-queue OrbS until your Lacerate GCD is finished, which means I lose about 0.5s for the target reticule position + click.

Quote: Originally Posted by KyoMamoru View Post
I save Explosive Probe for situations where I am forced to be a ranged DPS, so it is not part of my normal rotation. I find it is much better served during periods where I'm forced by mechanics to be at a range from the boss. I know I could probably get a few more points of DPS for using it, but I don't want to push my rotation out of the real world. Furthermore, it isn't supported by any talents that we have, which makes the energy cost a high for a rotation ability.
This is also correct - EP is awesome in PVP and until I saw parses I would have assumed it should be used as often as possible, but the only ability that it is above in DPE is Shiv and we need those for TA's. EP is a better choice than Overload Shot if you're at risk of energy capping and everything else is on cooldown, but other than that save it for when you're forced into range (with our new buffed Snipe )

Really nice data - thanks Kyo!
"Adventure, excitement, a Jedi craves not these things" -- Silent Bob

KyoMamoru's Avatar


KyoMamoru
04.26.2012 , 04:50 AM | #110
Quote: Originally Posted by Ryemfoh View Post
Plugging in your Corrosive Dart numbers, it looks like it's sitting at ~173 DPE - this still puts it behind Orbital Strike and Lacerate in priority. I've been trying out only using Dart when I have an open filler slot and no poison DoT up (AB not up) and I have a TA to Lacerate, but don't have enough data yet (not enough time ingame with my current workload )
Just a quick comment before I go take a nap. The reason I want to do Corrosive Dart / Acid Blade before Orbital Strike is so that they are ticking their damage during the dead time of no damage during the cast [slightly under 2 gcd] of Orbital Strike. Due to this, OS should always follow a fresh application of Acid Blade so that for those 3 seconds won't result in 0 dps. Over the course of a five minute battle, that's 5% of your combat time. So even if you average 1400 dps everywhere else, that 0 dps will bring you down 70 points of DPS.

On another note, I find it hilarious that in little under a week, I went from 1200 dps to 1418 dps. In another week, I do feel I'll be closing in on 1500. Part of me feels bad, since I'm proving the devs right if I hit that number, since we'll be very close to Marauder damage; however, I'm gutting out a substantial amount of the gear I have from stock, and I'm digging into the Sniper set bonus from PVP. I really don't feel this is the 'intended' method of breaking into the 1500 dps club. >/