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On Warzone Scoring and Rewards

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
On Warzone Scoring and Rewards
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sharkfinsix's Avatar


sharkfinsix
04.16.2012 , 10:40 AM | #31
I would like to add my observations from the weekends pvp in 1.2

First off let me state, i am not a hardcore pvper, i am a pvp enthusist however. I feel i am middle of the pack.

Also I like to PUG Wzs sometimes and other times I like to play with my guild. We are a PVE server

The issues i have seen pop up since 1.2 hit:

1. There needs to be a deserter debuff on people quitting WZ's It needs to be long, like 15 minutes + new reque time. Currently what is happening alot on my server is as soon as one team is losing, 2-4 players quit leaving the rest of the team shorthanded and in farm mode the rest of the match. I do not quit a match, i fight to the bitter end in these games. But if this continues as it is, i would likely just move on from PVP in general in this game and do PVE only or move on to the next game completely (this is not a threat, just what happens when players lose interest in a current game)

2. Matches need to end when outnumbered like they did previously to patch 1.2. Nothing worse than being stuck in a WZ 8 vs 4...my options at that point are to stand around and do nothing to prevent farming, or fight outnumbered and allow them to farm Warhero on me.

3. Premades rule all now. As in all other games previous to this, premades destroy pugs. I actually really thought the 4 member max premade was a brilliant move previously. It allowed players to group up with freinds and que, but also added a random element to each WZ. Now it seems it is a steamroll fest. Yes the pro premade crowd is going to say "join a premade then" which i do at times, but sometimes, i just like to log in que for a couple WZ's then go about other business for the night too. I used to win about 40-50% of my matches as a PUG and about 80% as a 4 man premade....now I win about 10% pug. Premades are a fact of life in MMOs i guess i was just really enjoying the 4 man premade max before to make PUG wzs more fun and hoped this was not int he works to change.

4. Lesser rewards and quest tracker not working. I am actually not to worried about only getting 40 coms now in a lose, cie la vie...but what does happen now is i am relying more than ever on the daily / weekly quests. I had never had a problem getting credit for my matches or wins previous to 1.2 but now half my WZ matches are not counting towards the quest. Like previously stated i am starting and finishing every WZ i enter and fighting on objectives getting my medals. Can you expelain on the Warzone daily yesterday why after 6 WZ matches my daily and weekly quest only gave me 9 points instead of 18?

5. Recruit -> Warhero gap seems harder than fresh 50 -> Battlemaster did. Maybe its just me but i seem to be doing much much worse in my recruit armor + 1 BM and Champ piece then i did as a fresh 50 earning my Cent armor vs BM's


Anyways, just my 2cents. I enjoy PVP in some games, other games i do not. I enjoyed PVP up till this patch in this game, and with some tweaks i think it can fall back in line.

chucklesmcnutt's Avatar


chucklesmcnutt
04.16.2012 , 10:46 AM | #32
I left my first WZ the other day. Never did that before in all the pvp i have done. I will start doing it from now on. There is no point to doing my very best and at best i get 45-50 coms and little valor. If i am stuck with a group of 50's who decided that once they hit 50 it was time to pvp i will get this feeling in my stomach of here we go again and watch as they dont pass the ball or run around all over the map trying to one on one someone.

I will fight to the bitter end on a real game but I wont stay for a crap game.

Its not worth it to bite my lip and take a loss anymore. I just leave.

Parthis's Avatar


Parthis
04.16.2012 , 10:48 AM | #33
I don't understand two things;

Why lower the required medals from three to one; one is EASY to get. If your goal to help people joining late/replacing leavers to get rewards then make the number of medals needed variable based on the length of time left/progress in the WZ when a player joins. Lowering the reward threshold just puts us back to players doing the minimum to AFK/farm.

Secondly the gap between fresh 50's and geared 50's is huge. I don't understand why the blues were introduced; making the Champion tier purchasable by credits would make more sense, and not only that gives you an easy upgrade route later (you can simply down-step the tiers as you introduce new ones).

Disappointed.

Drakonnen's Avatar


Drakonnen
04.16.2012 , 10:56 AM | #34
Wining is better than losing and I get that it should be rewarded more. The problem is the disparity is still too high. Even when I lose a match, but get the highest medals on my team (typically 10 or more) I still get almost no reward based on the time I spent. This has made it so that I find PvP extremely annoying now, and this is coming from someone that was PvPing almost exclusively.l

As it stands, I really have no incentive to warzone queue without grouping with an established team before hand, because I run too high a risk of getting stuck with bad players when I pug it, and then get put against an established team.

So now I simply don't pug it, and I'm starting to see a lot of people who don't, which will quickly have a diminishing effect on the number of people queueing, and extend the wait times.

If anything I think maybe there should be a 20% bonus for winning vs. losing. Something to give that incentive and make you happy you won, but not enough to discourage people from pugging.
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Gonewild's Avatar


Gonewild
04.16.2012 , 10:57 AM | #35
Quote: Originally Posted by DanielErickson View Post
Hey folks,

There's been a lot of discussion about the changes to the Warzone rewards system in Game Update 1.2 and the type of play style that it encourages. I wanted to help out a bit and point out a major change not all players may have noticed and share some of our plans.

First of all, rest assured we are keeping a close watch on the results of our reward changes to Warzones in 1.2 and we will continue to pull constant metrics to make sure they are going in the right direction as players get used to the new rules.

To refresh everyone's memories, one of the most important aspects of the new changes is that your team's performance inside the Warzone has a direct impact on a portion of the rewards you are given at the end of the Warzone. Even if your team is losing, the closer you can make the game the better your rewards will be - so don't give up hope! Giving up and letting the other team 'win faster' is now the worst possible route you can take to rewards.

Secondly, one of the things we have already identified to fix is to reduce the minimum amount of medals a player must receive to gain any reward at all. Currently that value is three (3), and we are going to reduce that to only needing one (1) medal to gain rewards. This should make sure we cover that all important backfill player while still protecting against the freeloaders.

As we move forward, we will continue to meet and discuss other possible changes based on the feedback here on the Forums as well as the data coming in from the live servers. As always, we appreciate your comments and want to hear from you.
Hi PVE Dev, please back away from the keyboard and allow a PVP-Centric Dev interact with PVP players from this time on.


First, BW should allow players to copy their level 50 characters to Test so that metrics can be 'tested' there.

Second, the current reward system doesn't encourage team work and playing the WZ. Instead, players immediately ditch a losing team- even if the loss is perceived. Premades have an obvious advantage in this instance (and I support premades), but without the rated WZs, PUGs become farming fodder.

Third, WZs remain active even with half a team (4:8 ratio). Have you ever played a WZ in these conditions? Let me tell you, it is a farm fest for the short team. Its ridiculous.

Fourth, Gear disparity has never been higher. What happened to removing the gear treadmill encouraging skill to differentiate players rather than time invested?

Fifth, why was DPS increased in WZs? I loved the idea of a Death Match style WZ, but not implemented like this. Any given WZ is like watching Keystone Kops running around, dying, dying dying.


I unsubbed from SWTOR BECAUSE of the PVP changes that were pushed to live from PTS. I am not the only disgruntled customer that cancelled their paying account as a direct result of those PVP changes heaped upon us.

Correct the above issues, and I may resub. Keep on your current path/mission and I won't grace BW with another dime for this game!

/Signed,
A Disgruntled Formerly Paying Customer

Appletaz's Avatar


Appletaz
04.16.2012 , 11:01 AM | #36
You said:
"To refresh everyone's memories, one of the most important aspects of the new changes is that your team's performance inside the Warzone has a direct impact on a portion of the rewards you are given at the end of the Warzone. Even if your team is losing, the closer you can make the game the better your rewards will be - so don't give up hope! Giving up and letting the other team 'win faster' is now the worst possible route you can take to rewards."

Have you ever really played warzones? This portion of your game is nowhere NEAR setting up and running groups that work as teams. Everything is random. Players with all levels of gear and ability AND ATTITUDE are thrown together and it is an absolute mess in there now, specifically since 1.2 Update.

One of my first games (Huttball) after the update was with a team that I did a lot of running around, trying to be in front of the ball for passing, etc etc etc, I was only able to garner 1 medal... and most of the times I was stunned and slowed and frozen and strangled by the opposite team over and over, unable to really accomplish anything. There was no way that one person in our team, who was typing insults towards the rest of the team, was going to work together with the rest of us to pull it out, let alone the rest of the team pulling together to work to get a win. In general, you have perhaps 2-3 people who may step up and lead and succeed. This is the way YOU have set these warzones up.

Pay attention to your game. Spend a few days of doing warzones day in and day out, and then come up with an equitable system to support your dream of how warzones should go.

Thank you.

DanielErickson's Avatar


DanielErickson
04.16.2012 , 11:06 AM | #37 This is the last staff post in this thread.  
Hey folks,

Some follow up news from observations of play and feedback over the weekend. In the next couple of days we will be deploying a small patch that will address the following issues:
  • As discussed, minimum medals to gain rewards will go from 3 to 1 to better reward those who are backfilled.
  • Warzones will once again be shutting down when population imbalance is detected. This was an unfortunate bug where a feature of Ranked Warzones (in full team play it is not desirable to let one team end the game prematurely by quitting out) was incorrectly implemented globally.
  • Completion of Warzones will gain a large increase in the percentage of rewards it represents, so while scoring is still the primary driver, you will cease to see games that give no rewards if players have a minimum of 1 medal earned.
  • We are extending the time we wait for a full team of eight to better make sure Warzones pop with complete teams.

A huge thank you to everyone who played this weekend and provided valuable feedback and analysis.
Daniel Erickson
Lead Game Designer

DralenBrand's Avatar


DralenBrand
04.16.2012 , 11:07 AM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by DanielErickson View Post
Hey folks,

...

To refresh everyone's memories, one of the most important aspects of the new changes is that your team's performance inside the Warzone has a direct impact on a portion of the rewards you are given at the end of the Warzone. Even if your team is losing, the closer you can make the game the better your rewards will be - so don't give up hope! Giving up and letting the other team 'win faster' is now the worst possible route you can take to rewards.



I understand that you think that "giving up" is the worst possible route to rewards, but it really isn't. You can say that is true, but I have played some WZ's post 1.2 that I wish I had given up on - even when you try hard and lose, you don't get enough to be worth the time. I like to play PvP even when I lose, but I do not like to play PvP at all when I am at a disadvantage to the opposition. I admit I am not good enough to play with a handicap. Sue me.

I prefer to stick it out in WZ matches, but this is a game, and it is one I am paying to play. If I am not enjoying the game, if it is one-sided (for whatever reason), and if I am risking zero reward for playing through to completion (including zero credits), then I will either quit and re-queue or quit and PvE for a while. That should be my right: freedom to choose what I play in the game and when and with who.

I make no apologies for this. No one should be penalzed for quiting when they are not enjoying a game they are paying to play. The answer/solution is not to disincentivize quitting but to incentivize staying. I don't need to win to enjoy myself. Losing can be fun too when there is not a huge dispartiy building between the winners and the losers. The knowledge that the winners are going to be outpacing me in gear progression just ruins it for me.

PvP should be about skill and the fun of fighting other players first - not about gear progression. Gear can be a fun reward for participation, but when only the winners are able to gear up with any degree of speed, the losers are ensured that they will continue to lose. Worse still, the competition ceases to be about skill and gear becomes the focus. Gear progression is great, but it should not be the reward for winning. It should be something all players get as they play.

The reward for winning should be obvious to anyone: winning is its own reward - bragging rights, etc. Valor SHOULD be a way of charting your status of a winner (the ilum debacle a while back has left me skeptical that valor means anything, really). Beating other players is fun, but conversely I don't enjoy winning over others simply b/c I have better gear (not that this is often an issue for me in the 50 bracket). If I win, then I want to win b/c I am better - not because I am better geared - but because I performed better. I don't mind losing to someone, on the flip side, who performed better than I did. I do mind losing to someone primarily bc his gear was sweeter.

This is all quite obvious to me. I should think that, if you really are watching the game and forums this closely, then you would see this too. People who take the position that gear should be awarded only to the winners are clearly defending their advantage - they do not trust their skill alone to maintain their status as "winners." You can side with them if you like, but it isn't the perspective of a true competitor to seek the "upper hand" in this fashion.

Fixing this should be a relatively simple matter, assuming you agreed with the foregoing. As there has been no fix, I presume that you disagree with what I have written above. For the life of me, I cannot understand why. I am sure others will flame me to explain it.


Quote: Originally Posted by DanielErickson View Post


Secondly, one of the things we have already identified to fix is to reduce the minimum amount of medals a player must receive to gain any reward at all. Currently that value is three (3), and we are going to reduce that to only needing one (1) medal to gain rewards. This should make sure we cover that all important backfill player while still protecting against the freeloaders...


That does sound like a good idea. To some degree, I like that rewards are based on team efforts rather than constant dueling (at least until we get a good deathmatch WZ - something many people want). However, some players may make a legitimate effort but come up short for whatever reason. I don't think it is wise, generally speaking, to make life harder for the players with the least amount of skill, which is what happens when you penalize (by failing to reward) players who make a legitimate effort to cap points and get trophies but fail to do so due to lack of skill.

The bottom line: no competition should be about giving the best players and advantage over the worst players. There is a reason that, in sports, the best players play at a handicap (not the worst). We want good, fun competition don't we? Why should we focus on making the best players better? Why would they want that?

"Not with my box of bunnies."

Dralen Brand, Member
Stay Classy Guild: Website|SWTOR Forum

Cataphractone's Avatar


Cataphractone
04.16.2012 , 11:07 AM | #39
Why am I punished if I can defend a node or cap a node over and over again, but my team is too stupid to do anything but Zerg something?

Last night I was in the new Warzone on an alt. We won 100% to 0%. We got 100 commendations. I don't know how many the other team got, but I bet it wasn't a lot.

You shouldn't reward a single player based on the teams success or failure. You as a developer are getting paid less because someone you work with sucks at their job. Why should I get less reward now because I randomly get put in a queue with 7 people who may not be good, or undergeared, or whatever.

The system is flawed.
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Polebreaker's Avatar


Polebreaker
04.16.2012 , 11:07 AM | #40
Quote:
On Warzone Scoring and Rewards | 04.13.2012 , 08:08 PM

Report Post
Hey folks,
First question, why is his post dated from 3 days ago and only showing up now on the forum?

Second... the whole premise of basing rewards on how well your team does, when 90% of the time THE TEAMS ARE NOT BALANCED is utterly flawed. Seriously, play your own damn game. Log in to a random server... good chance it'll be a low pop server because most of them are that way. Copy a pub toon over and join a wz. You might have to do this at prime time even to get a wz to start. Watch as the match starts 8v4. Watch as it stays like that for a few minutes and drops to 8v1 (you.)

Seriously. You cant base a system on rewarding team accomplishment even in the face of a losing battle when the fight was not even fair to start. Dont give up hope.... dude do you play the game? If you get screwed in the first 2 minutes of any of the maps, 90% of the time it's a guaranteed loss. IF and ONLY if a cross server wz system is implemented, preferably with an actual matchmaker that takes class and gear composition into account, will that even be a relevant metric on which to measure performance and rewards. (Side note, much as WoT players love to hate on it, that matchmaking system actually does a fairly decent job most of the time. Also, guess what... if you lose you arent screwed over just because your side got roflstomped... your rewards are based on a good combination of personal performance and objectives, with a minor bonus for a victory.)

To sum up: Garbage idea in... Garbage pvp out. Players out.