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DPS parser statistics, maybe the nerf wasn't so bad.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
DPS parser statistics, maybe the nerf wasn't so bad.

Crittlesticks's Avatar


Crittlesticks
04.13.2012 , 02:52 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Fallenturtle View Post
Also, WHERE THE HELL DO WE STORE ALL THESE KNIFES?!? *do /agent and you'll understand*
I KNOW RIGHT?! I want to use two vibroknives

Quote: Originally Posted by Fallenturtle View Post
The main point of all us operatives complaints is the fact that we ARE NOT within 5% of the new marauders.

your numbers point out this fact. reaching 1400 in the most "optimal" setting as concealment, and ~1250 as lethality in the same setting. I'm wondering what marauders are hitting with their new changes. If they are significantly higher, gearing won't change this fact. I think bioware is justifying our changes based on the fact that augments are now available, but having an augment doesn't solve key DPS/Utility issues.

Assuming equal gear, if a marauder, or, lets bring in a mercenary since there has been the mythical "hybrid tax" brought up into the conversation, is WAY above the operative in terms of dps, then what's the point of bringing us to a raid? What do we bring to the table.
If you say off healing, then your wrong, because Sorcs and Mercs can do that as well and have higher dps. They also bring utility(not including battle rez cause we can do it too). the sorc has a pull with a detaunt attached to it, the mercenaries have a stacking armor debuff they can put on a mob.
I understand where your frustration is coming from, but 5% is not WAY behind another DPS class, and from the parsers that I have seen, when playing optimally does not put operatives even that far behind mercenaries. We also have not one, but two threat dumps (Cloaking Screen and Countermeasures). We also bring other things to the ops group, like a CC that doesn't initiate combat, and the ability to not CC not just humanoids but droids also for an extended length of time. We also can CC several mobs at once with flashbang. We also have a lower cooldown on our interrupt that sorcerers.

I am not arguing that they are not superior in some aspects, but people get to tunnel visioned on the things that their class cannot do, and not on what you can do.


Quote: Originally Posted by GeoLager View Post
Sorcs and mercs also do damage from range.

Operatives do damage in melee and have no gap closer and require a positional direction, which compounds the reason to make their dps higher.
Geo, nobody in this thread is arguing with you that Sorcs and Mercs can do damage from a range, and that they might have slightly higher DPS. The point you are mistaken about, or it may have just been a poor wording choice I am not sure; is that they are useless and there is no point in brining them to a ops.

GeoLager's Avatar


GeoLager
04.13.2012 , 03:08 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Crittlesticks View Post


Geo, nobody in this thread is arguing with you that Sorcs and Mercs can do damage from a range, and that they might have slightly higher DPS. The point you are mistaken about, or it may have just been a poor wording choice I am not sure; is that they are useless and there is no point in brining them to a ops.


Wait, what?

Maybe you wrote that wrong, but you just said that sorcs and mercs are worthless to take to an op....yet operatives are below them and are therefore useful? That doesn't make any sense.


Not to mention sorcs have one of the higher and more sustainable dps specs. They are far from worthless.

Russlem's Avatar


Russlem
04.13.2012 , 03:09 PM | #23
One thing I'm wondering about as people are talking about dummy DPS is how armor debuffs are going to function in a raid setting. As we've seen from the incredible amount of mathematics done in the Ulduar patch in WoW is that Armor Penetration has an exponential scale, not a linear scale. This leads me to believe that dummy DPS is still artificially low for Concealment OPs because of how Acid Blade will interact with things like Tracer Missile +5 stacks. The numbers for Marauder DPS as far as I've seen parsed at 1500+ DPS have always been the Annihilation spec, which doesn't have any ArP and is mostly from DoT damage which is unaffected by ArP.

Unless I'm missing something from all the other specs except for Arsenal Merc, Operatives have the highest ArP in the game, meaning in a raid setting with raid debuffs going their effective DPS contribution from raid debuffs is larger than other classes because of how higher levels of ArP affect other stat weights. Anyone have any experience with this in SWTOR?

Crittlesticks's Avatar


Crittlesticks
04.13.2012 , 03:14 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by GeoLager View Post
Wait, what?

Maybe you wrote that wrong, but you just said that sorcs and mercs are worthless to take to an op....yet operatives are below them and are therefore useful? That doesn't make any sense.


Not to mention sorcs have one of the higher and more sustainable dps specs. They are far from worthless.
oops, you are correct. That was a wording error on my part. What I meant for the last sentence to read was "Operatives are not useless and that there is no reason to exclude them from a raid for a ~5% dps increase from a sorcerer or marauder."

And all of these numbers and so on are all based on the assumption that each player is playing their class perfectly, which lets face it....most people do not.


Quote: Originally Posted by Russlem View Post
One thing I'm wondering about as people are talking about dummy DPS is how armor debuffs are going to function in a raid setting. As we've seen from the incredible amount of mathematics done in the Ulduar patch in WoW is that Armor Penetration has an exponential scale, not a linear scale. This leads me to believe that dummy DPS is still artificially low for Concealment OPs because of how Acid Blade will interact with things like Tracer Missile +5 stacks. The numbers for Marauder DPS as far as I've seen parsed at 1500+ DPS have always been the Annihilation spec, which doesn't have any ArP and is mostly from DoT damage which is unaffected by ArP.

Unless I'm missing something from all the other specs except for Arsenal Merc, Operatives have the highest ArP in the game, meaning in a raid setting with raid debuffs going their effective DPS contribution from raid debuffs is larger than other classes because of how higher levels of ArP affect other stat weights. Anyone have any experience with this in SWTOR?
This is actually a really good point, and one I have been pondering for a while. Since acid blade does give you 30% armor penetration, when combining this with Juggernaut armor reduction stacks and tracer missile, I would assume my DPS would go up substantially from the 1400 dps it is currently as concealment.

GeoLager's Avatar


GeoLager
04.13.2012 , 03:18 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Crittlesticks View Post
oops, you are correct. That was a wording error on my part. What I meant for the last sentence to read was "Operatives are not useless and that there is no reason to exclude them from a raid for a ~5% dps increase from a sorcerer or marauder."

And all of these numbers and so on are all based on the assumption that each player is playing their class perfectly, which lets face it....most people do not.



Dummy dps is dps in a vacuum.

Real dps is much different. Operatives are effectively almost 30% behind marauders and sorcs. Because in encounters you have to move, target switch, etc...something that makes operative dps a liability.

Crittlesticks's Avatar


Crittlesticks
04.13.2012 , 03:26 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by GeoLager View Post
Dummy dps is dps in a vacuum.

Real dps is much different. Operatives are effectively almost 30% behind marauders and sorcs. Because in encounters you have to move, target switch, etc...something that makes operative dps a liability.
Other classes also have to move and target switch, we can also use our abilities while moving, if within melee range of the boss. While sorcs and mercenaries cannot use a good portion of theirs since they are required to cast or channel.

While some classes like Marauders do have higher sustained damage from DoT's, operatives burst DPS is higher, making up for some of the lost sustained DPS when transitioning between targets.

30% is an extremely inflated number that I feel you are pulling out of thin air, again with no logical reasoning behing it or numbers to back your claim. Similar to some of the other previous posts you have made.

GeoLager's Avatar


GeoLager
04.13.2012 , 03:35 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Crittlesticks View Post
Other classes also have to move and target switch, we can also use our abilities while moving, if within melee range of the boss. While sorcs and mercenaries cannot use a good portion of theirs since they are required to cast or channel.

While some classes like Marauders do have higher sustained damage from DoT's, operatives burst DPS is higher, making up for some of the lost sustained DPS when transitioning between targets.

30% is an extremely inflated number that I feel you are pulling out of thin air, again with no logical reasoning behing it or numbers to back your claim. Similar to some of the other previous posts you have made.
The 30% is from the new explosive conflict parse from PTS where uptime for an operative is almost perfect and operatives only end up parsing around 1k.

Crittlesticks's Avatar


Crittlesticks
04.13.2012 , 03:38 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by GeoLager View Post
The 30% is from the new explosive conflict parse from PTS where uptime for an operative is almost perfect and operatives only end up parsing around 1k.
I would love to see this data, I have been running the new explosive conflict content and I can tell you that I was pulling over 1k DPS consistently, and I don't give myself the delusion that I am doing everything perfectly. I think that the people from which you acquired this data may be disillusioned as to what the definition of perfect uptime is.

chuixupu's Avatar


chuixupu
04.13.2012 , 04:25 PM | #29
I just tried out Concealment on the training dummy (yes, in a vacuum, but I only want to compare my capable damage between the two specs at the moment) and it does appear that I can pull slightly higher numbers than with Lethality. I could average out around 1350 and peak at 1750 with a relic active. On the other hand, I am having more energy issues than I every remember having, so I need to work on balancing that out. It'll take more testing with actual encounters to see if the mobility of Lethality wins over Concealment still or not.
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Crittlesticks's Avatar


Crittlesticks
04.13.2012 , 04:50 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by chuixupu View Post
I just tried out Concealment on the training dummy (yes, in a vacuum, but I only want to compare my capable damage between the two specs at the moment) and it does appear that I can pull slightly higher numbers than with Lethality. I could average out around 1350 and peak at 1750 with a relic active. On the other hand, I am having more energy issues than I every remember having, so I need to work on balancing that out. It'll take more testing with actual encounters to see if the mobility of Lethality wins over Concealment still or not.
I would try weaving in a few more blaster rifle shots. With all three shots that come out each time, the damage is actually not all that bad. Plus if you do it fairly regularly it keeps your energy up a long time, since you stay in maximum energy regen range.