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DPS parser statistics, maybe the nerf wasn't so bad.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
DPS parser statistics, maybe the nerf wasn't so bad.

Crittlesticks's Avatar


Crittlesticks
04.13.2012 , 01:39 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by GeoLager View Post
You don't seem to understand class balance.


If one class is vastly superior to another in a phase of the game, the inferior class gets chalked up as useless.

This is pertinent when you start talking about thinks like enrage timers or dps races.

You would not want to bring an inferior dps to an encounter where there are certain requirements to meet. And if you meet the requirements, the superior class is also prefered because it allows for room for error.




This happens in every MMO, and SWTOR is not some abnormality from this formula. If classes cannot be competitive, they are not viable.
We full clear NM KP and EV on 8 man and 16 man. I have DPS'd for both and we do not ever hit an enrage timer nor do we ever fall behind on the DPS races, your statements are unfounded and have no actual data, numbers or in my opinion any Nightmare Mode experience to back them.

As for room for error, we have plenty of times where someone learning the encounter or even one of our core raids will screw something up and we have to adjust. It's called being a good raider. Optimal != necessary. Also, something you probably failed to realize is that if you do not bring along people who want to DPS as an operative or what have you. These people do not get any gear, which if my 8 year experience with MMO's has taught me anything, class balance is changing all the time. You don't want to have zero operatives that have fully decked out DPS gear when there is a shift and all of a sudden they are on top. Same goes for any class.

hulkweazel's Avatar


hulkweazel
04.13.2012 , 01:41 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Crittlesticks View Post
This mentality is exactly what I am talking about. I don't understand how people can really compare or expect an operatives DPS to be exactly the same or higher than a class like a marauder. The Marauder class has one purpose, to DPS. Operatives on the other hand can if needed help top off a tank, or throw a heal or two if everyone is taking burst AOE damage, while marauders cannot, same goes for snipers. You cannot realistically compare a pure DPS class to a hybrid and expect the pure damage numbers to be equal, how would that be fair for people that play Marauders or Snipers? As for assassins...given that both players are playing at the same skill level, the DPS increase that I have been seeing were minimal at best between an operative and an assassin.
Considering that Marauders have higher DPS, a gap closer, higher survivability and group buffs, yes, there is a problem. There is no point in taking a DPS Operative over a Marauder. Yes, Marauders are DPS only, but that shouldn't matter, as we have already established there shouldn't be a hybrid tax.

Healing/off-healing isn't a DPS Op's job. It isn't needed and if that happens, it means someone else isn't doing their's.

But if we want to compare classes that can heal/DPS, fine, let's look at Sorcs. Even with their nerf, most parses that I've seen have them coming at or near the top in sustained DPS, and they offer ranged as well as utility such as friendly pull. They can also off-heal better since bubble is instant cast.

Also note that you had to re-itemize a lot of your gear in order to have somewhat comparable DPS. The fact is, Operatives have possibly THE worst itemized sets in the game, which means that in order for us to see the same increase in stats, we need to farm multiple sets and remod them which can be difficult for a lot of people to do.

I do appreciate the numbers that you put up, and the information is very helpful. But as I have said many times, being "viable" does not mean being "useful".

Crittlesticks's Avatar


Crittlesticks
04.13.2012 , 01:52 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by hulkweazel View Post
Healing/off-healing isn't a DPS Op's job. It isn't needed and if that happens, it means someone else isn't doing their's.
While I do agree with mostly everything you said, I only threw this point in here because mistakes happen and if / when you are needed to do this, you can. I was not implying it was an operatives job to do so and I am well aware that sorcs can throw better off heals, even in a DPS spec.

My point of this entire post was only that the slightly lower DPS (granted you have to remod almost everything you have to achieve said DPS) you get as an operative compared to some of the other classes in the game does not warrant not bringing an operative in to DPS.

People forget that this is a game sometimes, and that its not always about what is the absolute most optimal group makeup. I am only trying to point out that an operative can at least somewhat keep up with other classes in DPS and that they ARE a viable DPS class currently, even if they are not the highest. If played correctly, it will not be your fault if your guild hits an enrage timer or loses a DPS race.

chuixupu's Avatar


chuixupu
04.13.2012 , 02:08 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by hulkweazel View Post
Considering that Marauders have higher DPS, a gap closer, higher survivability and group buffs, yes, there is a problem. There is no point in taking a DPS Operative over a Marauder. Yes, Marauders are DPS only, but that shouldn't matter, as we have already established there shouldn't be a hybrid tax.
.
Well, honestly I typically outdps and have a higher survival rate than our Marauder.

By all rights, according to statistics people have claimed, she *should* beat me, but I'm just a better player, always have been.

The thing is, people aren't usually sitting there deciding whether to bring an Operative or a Marauder. You're going to be grabbing the people you know that play well and know the content above everything else. And everyone hates stacking too many of the same class for competition reasons anyway. However, I can say that if we need to pug someone, we do often opt for a ranged dps of any class rather than a melee of any class because of the mechanics of the Ops. That's the most annoying design flaw I see so far. Far too much melee punishment. (and also, I might add, the reason I might switch to my sniper...not so much of dps but because I'd much rather just sit up and solve the puzzle and dps on that stupid boss in KP that run around on the ground)
Wardens of Fate / Alea Iacta Est
The Tarkus Legacy ~ The Harbinger/Jedi Covenant

Malanoth's Avatar


Malanoth
04.13.2012 , 02:12 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by GeoLager View Post
You don't seem to understand class balance.
I rather think he does.


Quote:
If one class is vastly superior to another in a phase of the game, the inferior class gets chalked up as useless.

This is pertinent when you start talking about thinks like enrage timers or dps races.

You would not want to bring an inferior dps to an encounter where there are certain requirements to meet. And if you meet the requirements, the superior class is also prefered because it allows for room for error.


This happens in every MMO, and SWTOR is not some abnormality from this formula. If classes cannot be competitive, they are not viable.
You are only assisting in creating the illusion of balance problems with the perception it leads to spot exclusion. If Operatives could do equal dps to Marauders then Marauder's would be penalised on DPS spots because all they can do is DPS in 3 specs. The Operative can throw emergency heals therefore brings equal dps and potentially raid saving utility. Who would be favoured more? Within 5% is not 'vastly superior'. Class viability and competitiveness is purely subjective and always will be. Lets see what happens with the parses over the enxt few weeks.

Marauders need to be just ahead on the DPS meters and BW saying Opo's are within 5% is good enough for me. If that margin of difference chalks the Opo as useless, using your words and according to the playerbase then its the playerbase that need to get a fecking grip on reality. Its always easy to point out enrage timers and DPS races when your trophy hunting for buffs for your class.

From what you are stating, those classes that are [wrongly] perceived as being useless, such as a Concealment Operative's (although I beleive sustained damage could be better) just because they are behind Marauders by up to 5% need to be buffed level with them? Otherwise they dont get invited to raid because they are vastly inferior? Dont you see how that then creates yet more balance problems and class representation problems?

If an Operation is going to wipe on boss its not because there is a [perceived] useless, inferior DPS in the group. You guys need to get away from this mentality. A boss wipe is generally a result of many things not being executed efficiently and mistakes being made collectively by the group.

GeoLager's Avatar


GeoLager
04.13.2012 , 02:21 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Malanoth View Post
I rather think he does.




You are only assisting in creating the illusion of balance problems with the perception it leads to spot exclusion. If Operatives could do equal dps to Marauders then Marauder's would be penalised on DPS spots because all they can do is DPS in 3 specs. The Operative can throw emergency heals therefore brings equal dps and potentially raid saving utility. Who would be favoured more? Within 5% is not 'vastly superior'. Class viability and competitiveness is purely subjective and always will be. Lets see what happens with the parses over the enxt few weeks.

Marauders need to be just ahead on the DPS meters and BW saying Opo's are within 5% is good enough for me. If that margin of difference chalks the Opo as useless, using your words and according to the playerbase then its the playerbase that need to get a fecking grip on reality. Its always easy to point out enrage timers and DPS races when your trophy hunting for buffs for your class.

From what you are stating, those classes that are [wrongly] perceived as being useless, such as a Concealment Operative's (although I beleive sustained damage could be better) just because they are behind Marauders by up to 5% need to be buffed level with them? Otherwise they dont get invited to raid because they are vastly inferior? Dont you see how that then creates yet more balance problems and class representation problems?

If an Operation is going to wipe on boss its not because there is a [perceived] useless, inferior DPS in the group. You guys need to get away from this mentality. A boss wipe is generally a result of many things not being executed efficiently and mistakes being made collectively by the group.

Nobody is penalized.

If you have a dps spot you bring the player, not the class if everything is equal.

That's not the contrast now. The contrast now is, bring the best dps and an operative if we have room.

Hybrid tax is the stupidest catch phrase in all of MMO gaming. Willingly punishing someone for a spec they don't play is how spiteful some people get.

Crittlesticks's Avatar


Crittlesticks
04.13.2012 , 02:25 PM | #17
Thanks for reiterating the point of operatives being able to throw emergency heals, and generally bring helpful skills to a raid other than just pure DPS. I feel that it is an important aspect of the class that many players often overlook.

Quote: Originally Posted by Malanoth View Post
From what you are stating, those classes that are [wrongly] perceived as being useless, such as a Concealment Operative's (although I beleive sustained damage could be better).
With the current changes to the concealment tree, they did actually balance out the sustained damage I believe. The increased damage on backstab, combined with the longer cooldown; the decrease in energy cost to Laceration as well as a few other quality of life changes to Stim Boost and Shiv have enabled me to tweak my skill priority slightly and manage to maintain a constant stream of consistent damage, only needing to weave in a few rounds of blaster shots in between to maintain optimal energy regen. It may not be perfect yet, but I can appreciate what Bioware is trying to do and concealment is certainly more sustainable than it was pre 1.2.

Overall, with several hours of playing in flash points and beating on the training dummies though, I have found concealment to actually surpass the DPS of Lethality pretty consistently. I feel this would become even more apparent in fights where you often have to switch targets and run out of melee range. This being because Lethality takes longer to ramp up if you will, where as concealment has high initial burst damage, but at the same time if played correctly can maintain pretty consistent DPS as well.


Quote: Originally Posted by GeoLager View Post
Nobody is penalized.

If you have a dps spot you bring the player, not the class if everything is equal.

That's not the contrast now. The contrast now is, bring the best dps and an operative if we have room.
I am really not trying to be confrontational here, but this logic seems to be stemming from a player or guild that still actually has trouble dealing with enrage timers and DPS races. Which in all reality, the only reason that this is most likely happening is because like what Malanoth said - that your ops group in general is making to many mistakes and failing together as a team. People just like to point fingers and blame the 5% DPS decrease from one player in their raid when compared to another marauder, because generally people do not like to admit that everyone has room for improvement.

Fallenturtle's Avatar


Fallenturtle
04.13.2012 , 02:34 PM | #18
The main point of all us operatives complaints is the fact that we ARE NOT within 5% of the new marauders.

your numbers point out this fact. reaching 1400 in the most "optimal" setting as concealment, and ~1250 as lethality in the same setting. I'm wondering what marauders are hitting with their new changes. If they are significantly higher, gearing won't change this fact. I think bioware is justifying our changes based on the fact that augments are now available, but having an augment doesn't solve key DPS/Utility issues.

Assuming equal gear, if a marauder, or, lets bring in a mercenary since there has been the mythical "hybrid tax" brought up into the conversation, is WAY above the operative in terms of dps, then what's the point of bringing us to a raid? What do we bring to the table.
If you say off healing, then your wrong, because Sorcs and Mercs can do that as well and have higher dps. They also bring utility(not including battle rez cause we can do it too). the sorc has a pull with a detaunt attached to it, the mercenaries have a stacking armor debuff they can put on a mob.


Also, WHERE THE HELL DO WE STORE ALL THESE KNIFES?!? *do /agent and you'll understand*

Bazzoong's Avatar


Bazzoong
04.13.2012 , 02:45 PM | #19
Awesome, thanks for posting the numbers, cba to run a parser just to roof the cry baby idiots wrong, the more actual numbers I see the more it becomes clear the doomsayers for operative are wrong.

But do not put to much effort in, idiots can not be cured not even with the almost almighty power of math.

GeoLager's Avatar


GeoLager
04.13.2012 , 02:48 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Fallenturtle View Post
The main point of all us operatives complaints is the fact that we ARE NOT within 5% of the new marauders.

your numbers point out this fact. reaching 1400 in the most "optimal" setting as concealment, and ~1250 as lethality in the same setting. I'm wondering what marauders are hitting with their new changes. If they are significantly higher, gearing won't change this fact. I think bioware is justifying our changes based on the fact that augments are now available, but having an augment doesn't solve key DPS/Utility issues.

Assuming equal gear, if a marauder, or, lets bring in a mercenary since there has been the mythical "hybrid tax" brought up into the conversation, is WAY above the operative in terms of dps, then what's the point of bringing us to a raid? What do we bring to the table.
If you say off healing, then your wrong, because Sorcs and Mercs can do that as well and have higher dps. They also bring utility(not including battle rez cause we can do it too). the sorc has a pull with a detaunt attached to it, the mercenaries have a stacking armor debuff they can put on a mob.


Also, WHERE THE HELL DO WE STORE ALL THESE KNIFES?!? *do /agent and you'll understand*
Sorcs and mercs also do damage from range.

Operatives do damage in melee and have no gap closer and require a positional direction, which compounds the reason to make their dps higher.