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The Bounty Hunterís Guide to PFT: An Advanced Prototype Special

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Vanguard / Powertech
The Bounty Hunterís Guide to PFT: An Advanced Prototype Special

TheOpf's Avatar


TheOpf
04.26.2012 , 09:36 AM | #101
Quote: Originally Posted by Anavarra View Post
Well, the sim issue with Retractable Blade is that, if you're following a 15-second rotation, you don't need to watch the debuff. You know that you're going to use Flame Thrower on cooldown, and then the RB debuff will fall off just as Flame Thrower finishes casting. The dot ends exactly 15 seconds after it's cast, and recasting it exactly 15-seconds later doesn't clip the last tick. By not using RB every 15-seconds in the sim, it's losing DPS in an otherwise mathematically perfect scenario. That pushes RB out of its spot in the rotation, and then the priority system starts making sub-optimal choices, which delay more important abilities. In other words, as you said, the sim is assuming minimal human error in refreshing the DoT in a priority system. But the rotation system doesn't rely on recognition of the debuff dropping off to know when to reapply it, so the assumption of human error there in the sim creates a cascading ability selection failure in the rotation that reduces DPS. Of course there's the other problem I mentioned earlier, with the sim using less optimal filler abilities prior to Flame Thrower as well.

Since we know the sim doesn't properly execute the rotation, a possible correction is to run the sim ignoring PFT, and then use the average damage numbers generated along with corrected ability usage numbers to create a DPS estimate. If we assume that the rotation is executed perfectly, no fillers are replaced with Flame Bursts, and Heat Cooldowns are only used every two minutes to maintain the rotation (basically the worst possible simulated scenario for the rotation), then we can know precisely how many times each ability is used.

So, running a 6-minute sim with the Standard AP priority list you mentioned earlier, and the Rakata BiS gear list, I get: ~1542 DPS
If I rerun the sim to use FT on cooldown, rebuild the ability usage numbers using the worst possible case for ability usage in the rotation, multiply with the average damage numbers from the sim (and correct the FT damage output to reflect any changes in the amount of PFT stacks generated), and recalculate DPS I get: ~1549 DPS

So, a small net gain in DPS, which is what would be expected based on the original average damage numbers.

I think you are misunderstanding Filler. Using Immolate before PFT is the same as using it after PFT. Regardless of that, I actually got a bit lost in your response. Let me see if I can make the point. In the sims your fillers are RP (free) and Rapid, HL stands for heat limit it means they take priority when your heat excceeds that point.

Using Rakata BiS, and PFT as my only usage of FT. I see 1548 dps.
Using Rakata BiS, and the Tibetan Candle - 1546 DPS
Using Rakata BiS, and FT on demand regardless of stacks I see 1540 dps.
Using Rakata BiS, and Norse build and PFT - 1469 dps (this is what I figured since Rakata is not BiS for Norse build)



The sim adds the stacks so that FT used on CD will be running with whatever stacks you use. The reason the dps is so close is you actually gain a single FT attack during the rotation if you use it on CD. In ever single test that I ran using FT on demand instead of waiting for PFT equaled a net dps loss of 8 dps. It's not enough for me to say don't use your rotation, but it is not the optimal rotation for a 31pt AP build. The same calculations you are making for an optimum heat management can be used for standard AP rotation.

Each rotation used the same HL (heat limit) restrictions. If your heat goes over 20 RP(Free) and Rapid are used before any other attack.
The Bounty Hunter AP Guide: Always Learning -Vanguard Tactics Guide: Where is my PG Slow?
Anam Ithieor- 50 AP Powertech
Anbas Ithieor- 20 Operative (lethality/healer)

Allysaala's Avatar


Allysaala
04.26.2012 , 09:43 AM | #102
Just a small clerical issue to report on a very well written guide. Under the section "Optional Talents" for the Survival builds you listed "Hitman" twice...not sure you meant to do this so I'm just pointing this out. I've copied/pasted the lines from the guide i'm talking about so you can more readily find them if this needs fixing

(Bounty Hunter) AP Survival Build
(Vanguard) Tactics Max Survival Build

Optional Talents: Combust, Hitman, Steely Resolve, Hitman, Iron Fist, and Prototype Electric Surge are all interchangeable depending on preferences.
the only cure for "alt-itis" is the make more alts...come on...you know you wanna make another one!!

TheOpf's Avatar


TheOpf
04.26.2012 , 09:54 AM | #103
Quote: Originally Posted by Allysaala View Post
Just a small clerical issue to report on a very well written guide. Under the section "Optional Talents" for the Survival builds you listed "Hitman" twice...not sure you meant to do this so I'm just pointing this out. I've copied/pasted the lines from the guide i'm talking about so you can more readily find them if this needs fixing

(Bounty Hunter) AP Survival Build
(Vanguard) Tactics Max Survival Build

Optional Talents: Combust, Hitman, Steely Resolve, Hitman, Iron Fist, and Prototype Electric Surge are all interchangeable depending on preferences.
Fixed and Thank you for the compliment.
The Bounty Hunter AP Guide: Always Learning -Vanguard Tactics Guide: Where is my PG Slow?
Anam Ithieor- 50 AP Powertech
Anbas Ithieor- 20 Operative (lethality/healer)

Allysaala's Avatar


Allysaala
04.26.2012 , 10:13 AM | #104
Quote: Originally Posted by Morticoccus View Post
I don't know if he resisted it or if he had any CD up to negate CC but he took my dart in the face and kept blasting, as for LoS that's kinda hard to do on tatooine =p

I got him down to 50% health before he killed me but that was it.

Like I said I'm used to being able to pop camo and flank the cover classes, but I guess it will get easier once I get PFT when I switch specs at 40.
Those slingers will be crispy critters in their holes XD
That 'slinger took ur Electro Dart to the face and kept blasting 'cuz he prolly activated "Hunker Down" [before u shot] which for 20sec makes him immune to CC when a slinger is in cover. FYI if his cover screen has what looks like two big steel plates around the top edges they've activated Hunker Down. I linked a description for ya

http://www.torhead.com/ability/b4C8Ox4/hunker-down
the only cure for "alt-itis" is the make more alts...come on...you know you wanna make another one!!

dardack's Avatar


dardack
04.26.2012 , 10:30 AM | #105
Quote: Originally Posted by TheOpf View Post
I ran EV last night, and was in Tibetan Candle. Outside of accidentally overheating on the one where we have to 1v1 people. I had no serious heat issues. I pracitced using rapid shots as my priority every time my heat crossed 20 and (free)RP was down. I am with you Dardack in that the ease with which Norse uses heat and the rotation is fluid is awesome.

The CGC build is more dps, as I can drop things much faster. I was running straight pvp gear except the three pieces of tionese gear that I actually have from pveing occassionally, and was only about 5-10 percent behind our guilds top dps'ers. Granted, weaving Rapid in every single time your heat crosses 20 is pretty tough to remember.
Maybe my skill level or attention level or my gear, I don't know. But I find I do more DPS in HEGC. I was testign CGC and I just dont' have the attention for that tight of heat issues I guess. Personal preference. Since I'm in top 5 at least in my guild with mara's and they have campaign gear and I don't, I figure I'm ok in NORSE.
Doofensmirtz lvl 50 PTIn Erebus Drooga's Pleasure Barge. 4 Imps 50. Doofentrooper lvl 50 VG in Goof Troop DPB
Dear BW please have RS/HiB send me to other fleet Nekkid. TY. Also, don't allow 3 sin/shadow 2 sorc/sage teams in HB. That is all.

TheOpf's Avatar


TheOpf
04.26.2012 , 10:31 AM | #106
Quote: Originally Posted by Allysaala View Post
That 'slinger took ur Electro Dart to the face and kept blasting 'cuz he prolly activated "Hunker Down" [before u shot] which for 20sec makes him immune to CC when a slinger is in cover. FYI if his cover screen has what looks like two big steel plates around the top edges they've activated Hunker Down. I linked a description for ya

http://www.torhead.com/ability/b4C8Ox4/hunker-down
I actually like when they pop hunker down. It means I can get on them and pop HO with PFT and watch them freak and either run away or stand still and take it in the face. If they run away they wasted their Hunker down, and they will die.
The Bounty Hunter AP Guide: Always Learning -Vanguard Tactics Guide: Where is my PG Slow?
Anam Ithieor- 50 AP Powertech
Anbas Ithieor- 20 Operative (lethality/healer)

Anavarra's Avatar


Anavarra
04.26.2012 , 10:45 AM | #107
Quote: Originally Posted by TheOpf View Post
I think you are misunderstanding Filler. Using Immolate before PFT is the same as using it after PFT. Regardless of that, I actually got a bit lost in your response. Let me see if I can make the point. In the sims your fillers are RP (free) and Rapid, HL stands for heat limit it means they take priority when your heat excceeds that point.

Using Rakata BiS, and PFT as my only usage of FT. I see 1548 dps.
Using Rakata BiS, and the Tibetan Candle - 1546 DPS
Using Rakata BiS, and FT on demand regardless of stacks I see 1540 dps.
Using Rakata BiS, and Norse build and PFT - 1469 dps (this is what I figured since Rakata is not BiS for Norse build)



The sim adds the stacks so that FT used on CD will be running with whatever stacks you use. The reason the dps is so close is you actually gain a single FT attack during the rotation if you use it on CD. In ever single test that I ran using FT on demand instead of waiting for PFT equaled a net dps loss of 8 dps. It's not enough for me to say don't use your rotation, but it is not the optimal rotation for a 31pt AP build. The same calculations you are making for an optimum heat management can be used for standard AP rotation.

Each rotation used the same HL (heat limit) restrictions. If your heat goes over 20 RP(Free) and Rapid are used before any other attack.
Alright, so, let me try to be more clear then.

The sim cannot accurately gauge the DPS of maintaining a true rotation like the one I've described. This is because the sim cannot be made to execute this rotation, due to the fact that it is hardcoded to maintain <91% Retractable Blade uptime. This causes it to use Flame Burst when it should be refreshing Retractable Blade. The net result is more Flame Bursts, less Immolates, Retractable Blades and (maybe) Rail Shots. Using Flame Burst to replace those abilities results in a net DPS loss. This error in the sim is why you're seeing lower DPS when using Flame Thrower on cooldown.

The issue is that, the sim is hardcoded to not refresh Retractable Blade more than every 16.5 seconds. As you mentioned, this is to simulate the user having to recognize the debuff has fallen off and reapply because they are using a priority ability selection system.

However, if you are executing a heat neutral, 15-second rotation (like the one I have suggested), then you do not have to watch the debuff. You are executing a specific sequence and you know that you must hit Retractable Blade in sequence to maintain maximum uptime. If this rotation was executed in a perfect simulation, it would have 100% RB uptime.

The sim, however, cannot replicate that scenario. It introduces an error into the rotation by delaying Retractable Blade that should not happen in the otherwise perfect simulation setting. This error is the cause of the lower DPS you are seeing when simulating the use of Flame Thrower on cooldown.

TheOpf's Avatar


TheOpf
04.26.2012 , 11:00 AM | #108
Quote: Originally Posted by Anavarra View Post
Alright, so, let me try to be more clear then.

The sim cannot accurately gauge the DPS of maintaining a true rotation like the one I've described. This is because the sim cannot be made to execute this rotation, due to the fact that it is hardcoded to maintain <91% Retractable Blade uptime. This causes it to use Flame Burst when it should be refreshing Retractable Blade. The net result is more Flame Bursts, less Immolates, Retractable Blades and (maybe) Rail Shots. Using Flame Burst to replace those abilities results in a net DPS loss. This error in the sim is why you're seeing lower DPS when using Flame Thrower on cooldown.

The issue is that, the sim is hardcoded to not refresh Retractable Blade more than every 16.5 seconds. As you mentioned, this is to simulate the user having to recognize the debuff has fallen off and reapply because they are using a priority ability selection system.

However, if you are executing a heat neutral, 15-second rotation (like the one I have suggested), then you do not have to watch the debuff. You are executing a specific sequence and you know that you must hit Retractable Blade in sequence to maintain maximum uptime. If this rotation was executed in a perfect simulation, it would have 100% RB uptime.

The sim, however, cannot replicate that scenario. It introduces an error into the rotation by delaying Retractable Blade that should not happen in the otherwise perfect simulation setting. This error is the cause of the lower DPS you are seeing when simulating the use of Flame Thrower on cooldown.
My point is you will see the same jump in every build because the Norse exceutes a perfectly Heat neutral build. Anyways, we are debating a plus minus of 1 percent. I see your point, and recognize it as a valid argument for a more extensive rotation based on heat management. However, my job in the guide wasn't to show you a rotation and say this is what you have to do every time. It was to give you what the priority rotation is and then give you a basic rundown of a sample rotation. I have no desire to give someone a 5 minute rotation against a boss as that would take all the work and discovery away from the user. I added that you have RS as a filler, and that RP and Rapid are to be used when heat goes over 20 in order to maintain a perfect rotation.

Learning to manage your heat is 80 percent of the PT class. Each rotation will be different because of lag, fight, and skill of the player. I am almost positive that in a five minute fight. Dardack and I who run the same build will end up with about 10 different varying points. My rotation begins Immolate - RB - FB - Free RP. While he runs something slightly different. The end result is we keep the same priority system, but place them in a different rotation. I never use (free RP) except when over 20 heat.

. I will add a note that using PFT on CD if your stack is between 3 and 5 would only cost you (+/- 1%) but would allow you a smoother heat rotation while keeping RB up.

I don't find keeping RB up to be nearly as important as using Immolate and Rail shot whenever they are ready to be used. RB is a lower DPS per CD than both of those, so I am not sure why it's so important to you to keep RB up.
The Bounty Hunter AP Guide: Always Learning -Vanguard Tactics Guide: Where is my PG Slow?
Anam Ithieor- 50 AP Powertech
Anbas Ithieor- 20 Operative (lethality/healer)

TheOpf's Avatar


TheOpf
04.26.2012 , 11:03 AM | #109
Quote: Originally Posted by dardack View Post
Maybe my skill level or attention level or my gear, I don't know. But I find I do more DPS in HEGC. I was testign CGC and I just dont' have the attention for that tight of heat issues I guess. Personal preference. Since I'm in top 5 at least in my guild with mara's and they have campaign gear and I don't, I figure I'm ok in NORSE.
CGC is a pain in the arse, but I am too lazy to switch right now haha. Plus I really like slowing people while chasing them with CGC's hits. I find slows to be way better in Huttball when chasing a ball carrier than my 15 percent speed increase. Plus I have gotten a few last minute kills with RS recently so I do see the value of having CGC in pvp.

The heat management is ridiculous for the Tibetan Candle. I keep playing it because I hate when a build has me beat.
The Bounty Hunter AP Guide: Always Learning -Vanguard Tactics Guide: Where is my PG Slow?
Anam Ithieor- 50 AP Powertech
Anbas Ithieor- 20 Operative (lethality/healer)

Anavarra's Avatar


Anavarra
04.26.2012 , 12:26 PM | #110
Quote: Originally Posted by TheOpf View Post
My point is you will see the same jump in every build because the Norse exceutes a perfectly Heat neutral build. Anyways, we are debating a plus minus of 1 percent. I see your point, and recognize it as a valid argument for a more extensive rotation based on heat management. However, my job in the guide wasn't to show you a rotation and say this is what you have to do every time. It was to give you what the priority rotation is and then give you a basic rundown of a sample rotation. I have no desire to give someone a 5 minute rotation against a boss as that would take all the work and discovery away from the user. I added that you have RS as a filler, and that RP and Rapid are to be used when heat goes over 20 in order to maintain a perfect rotation.

Learning to manage your heat is 80 percent of the PT class. Each rotation will be different because of lag, fight, and skill of the player. I am almost positive that in a five minute fight. Dardack and I who run the same build will end up with about 10 different varying points. My rotation begins Immolate - RB - FB - Free RP. While he runs something slightly different. The end result is we keep the same priority system, but place them in a different rotation. I never use (free RP) except when over 20 heat.

. I will add a note that using PFT on CD if your stack is between 3 and 5 would only cost you (+/- 1%) but would allow you a smoother heat rotation while keeping RB up.

I don't find keeping RB up to be nearly as important as using Immolate and Rail shot whenever they are ready to be used. RB is a lower DPS per CD than both of those, so I am not sure why it's so important to you to keep RB up.
The comments you make about heat management and fight variety actually sort of bring this back to the point I was originally trying to make by posting this.

Playing AP as a priority system is kind of a beast. Youíve got three 15-second cooldowns, one 9-second cooldown, a 15-second DoT, and 3-self buffs that you have to keep track of in order to ensure that youíre using the right skill at the right time. In addition to tracking your heat and ensuring you donít overheat yourself. Itís fairly overwhelming, at least it was for me when I was new to the spec.

Playing AP as a true rotation eliminates 90% of that headache, and as weíve just spent the last page discussing, maintains the same theoretical DPS. Instead of having to track all the cooldowns and buffs, and make quick decisions on what to use as priorities come into conflict, you can execute all high priority moves in a mathematically optimal, and simple to learn, rotation. Thereíre really only two required conflict decisions. The first is at Filler 2 where you have to determine if Flame Barrage is up and Rocket Punch is (or will be) off-cooldown. The second is at Rail Shot where you have to verify that Charged Gauntlets is up (which it will be ~88% of the time). The methodical rotation, combined with minimal conflict resolution, makes it easier to watch the heat bar, and apply additional conflict resolutions to judiciously convert fillers into Flame Bursts (thus further increasing DPS).

Based on my own experiences, I feel like it would be very valuable for players new to the AP spec, to be educated that, rather than trying to master APís priority system, they could simply learn to execute this ability rotation and do just as well.

Retractable Blade
FILLER 1 [Flame Burst (heat permitting) OR Rocket Punch (if FREE) OR Rapid Shots]
Flame Burst
Flame Burst
FILLER 2 [Flame Burst (heat permitting) OR Rocket Punch (if FREE) OR Rapid Shots]
Rail Shot (if Charged Gauntlets up) OR Flame Burst
Immolate
FILLER 3 [Flame Burst (heat permitting) OR Rocket Punch (if FREE) OR Rapid Shots]
Flame Thrower
<repeat>

Of course, you can lead into the rotation however you like. Iím rather fond of:
Flame Burst
Immolate
Flame Burst
TSO Flame Thrower

Or if TSO isnít available:
Flame Burst
Immolate
Rocket Punch (FREE)
Flame Thrower

Or if you have time to wind up PFT stacks with Flame Sweep and get back to 0 heat before the pull, just lead off with Flame Thrower .