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So here are all 12 members of the council during the game time?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore > Spoilers
So here are all 12 members of the council during the game time?

Tfranco's Avatar


Tfranco
04.10.2012 , 11:16 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Temeluchus View Post
Actually, you are both wrong. The Wrath does not have direct authority over the Council nor is he/she just some state sanctioned secret police. The Wrath can purge the Council, if the Emperor orders him/her to but he/she has no control over them at all.

The Wrath's function is to act as the Emperor's personal executioner and enforcer, he/she has power and is very dangerous but since he/she reports only to the Emperor, the Wrath exists outside the typical Sith power structure.

Paying a modicum of attention to the SW story would also tell you that Baras replaced Vengean on the Council after we killed Vengean for him.
Already admitted my dumb about baras

But the council RECOGNIZES AND RESPECTS the wraths authority, like i said in my last post. They dont answer to the wrath but they respect him/her. Idk if i actually said they answer to him, its not what i mean. All im saying is he/she holds a position above the council. it doesnt mean they answer to the wrath. They respect his/her imput.

Starhawk's Avatar


Starhawk
04.10.2012 , 11:18 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Tfranco View Post
So i was wrong about Baras' position, i admitted its been awhile i think it was a different thread thoug. But dont down play the wraths role. Im not saying if i say "Go attack the republic fleet" that they will jump on it. BUT if the council is trying to figure out whether or not to assault the republic fleet and the Wrath walks in and gives opinion the council recognizes and respects his/her authority and alters the discussion accordingly. The emporers wrath holds a position above all other sith, besides the emporer himself, so he/she may not make the final decision on a matter but his/her opinion greatly effects what the council does. Its the same way the Emporers Voice has a say in what happens, otherwise no one would have given a **** that Baras claimed to be the emporers voice...not even the emporer would have cared. Stop downplaying the importance of the hand.
Also dont Downplay their power either, the only sith on the council powerful enough to measure up to the wrath is the player character inquisitors. The rest of the council the wrath would wipe the floor with. To be honest im surprised the inquis chars werent made the VOice of the emporer, though i assume thats because the voice will be involved more in the SW story (true voice) later on.
But again i admit i was wrong about baras, i thought the council didnt accept him as his masters replacement for the potentiol of his involvement or somthing like that.
Edit: Oh and its 10 humans, 1 pureblood, 1 unkown. THe sith inquis characters race varys by player. it could be 11 humans, could be 2 purebloods who knows. only each player does :P

Just to set some things straight. The Wrath does not command the Voice, nor does he command the council, he "polices" them but does not make any decisions otherwise. The Voice is a body under the control of the Emperor himself possessing some of his power, the Wrath is the Emperor's executioner, and while both the player and Lord Scourge are formidable in power they are nothing compared to the Emperor himself.

So the chain of command is Emperor > Voice > Hand* > Wrath > Council > etc.

*I put the Hands in there as well since they are too in a way possesed by the Emperor and are the ones giving you the player commands.

As for the council itself there is no prof whatsoever that the other members of the council could not defeat the Wrath or the SI in single combat, canon wise. Gameplay wise sure since we are supposed to win at the end, both Baras and Thanaton are beatable. But you cannot say that for example Darth Marr wouldnt mop the floor with either of them as well just as easily as the player does.

The SI is accepted because he/she showed to be more deserving of the council seat than Thanaton, who - and lets be honest with ourselfs - wasnt that scary powerful to begin with. And they bow before the SW because he is the Wrath, does not matter how powerful the SW is, messing with the Wrath or killing it would only anger the Emperor and have them replaced.

Tfranco's Avatar


Tfranco
04.10.2012 , 11:25 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Starhawk View Post
Just to set some things straight. The Wrath does not command the Voice, nor does he command the council, he "polices" them but does not make any decisions otherwise. The Voice is a body under the control of the Emperor himself possessing some of his power, the Wrath is the Emperor's executioner, and while both the player and Lord Scourge are formidable in power they are nothing compared to the Emperor himself.

So the chain of command is Emperor > Voice > Hand* > Wrath > Council > etc.

*I put the Hands in there as well since they are too in a way possesed by the Emperor and are the ones giving you the player commands.

As for the council itself there is no prof whatsoever that the other members of the council could not defeat the Wrath or the SI in single combat, canon wise. Gameplay wise sure since we are supposed to win at the end, both Baras and Thanaton are beatable. But you cannot say that for example Darth Marr wouldnt mop the floor with either of them as well just as easily as the player does.

The SI is accepted because he/she showed to be more deserving of the council seat than Thanaton, who - and lets be honest with ourselfs - wasnt that scary powerful to begin with. And they bow before the SW because he is the Wrath, does not matter how powerful the SW is, messing with the Wrath or killing it would only anger the Emperor and have them replaced.
The wrath answers only to the emporer, not the hand, not the voice, not the council, only the emporer. The only reason the hand guides the wraths actions in act III is because the emporer is indesposed aka fighting the JK.
When i posted what you call a chain of command its more a chain of power, the chain of command is way more complex.
The wrath is not some freaking police officer, we are the wrath and carry out the emporers will when the voice/council fails to do so. The council doesnt answer to the wrath, as ive said in alot of posts now, they RESPECT his input and authority, as much as a council member. The council only answers to the Voice who answers to the emporer, i think. If i remember right no one on the council has even met the emporer only the Hand, Voice, and Wrath.

Temeluchus's Avatar


Temeluchus
04.10.2012 , 11:37 AM | #24
You guys keep making the mistake of making a chain of command in the Sith power structure with the Wrath in it and above the Council. This isn't the case, the Wrath is off to the side in his own little power structure. He isn't above the Council in rank, because he doesn't exist in that power structure.

The Wrath answers to the Emperor who gives the Wrath his commands through either the Voice or his Servants/Hands. The Wrath is most likely in charge of or able to use the Imperial Guard divisions,who make it clear on Belsavis that they don't have to abide by the typical Imperial military chain of command.

This power structure would be off to the side in a typical chart explaining the chain of command while the Council would be in it's own chain directly under the Emperor and then the Voice, with the various other Sith and non Sith people,agencies,commands under them.

He reports directly to the Emperor and no one else. The Council could keep him in check in theory by complaining to the Emperor, who could either reel the Wrath in or tell the Council to go kick rocks. The Wrath can't influence or kill off the Council without direct orders from the Emperor unless he wants to get slapped down by the Emperor.
"Men call me Darkstar, and I am of the night.

Starhawk's Avatar


Starhawk
04.10.2012 , 11:55 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Tfranco View Post
The wrath answers only to the emporer, not the hand, not the voice, not the council, only the emporer. The only reason the hand guides the wraths actions in act III is because the emporer is indesposed aka fighting the JK.
When i posted what you call a chain of command its more a chain of power, the chain of command is way more complex.
The wrath is not some freaking police officer, we are the wrath and carry out the emporers will when the voice/council fails to do so. The council doesnt answer to the wrath, as ive said in alot of posts now, they RESPECT his input and authority, as much as a council member. The council only answers to the Voice who answers to the emporer, i think. If i remember right no one on the council has even met the emporer only the Hand, Voice, and Wrath.
And there you are wrong again. You fail to understand that the Voice IS the Emperor. The Emperor himself is outside of the known galaxy chilling somewhere, but he takes a body and uses it to do whatever the heck he wants, and that body is the Voice. He is in command of the Wrath. The Wrath does what the Voice/Emperor commands.

The Hand convey the wishes of the Emperor and serve him in a different way than the Wrath, but when the Voice was unavailable to direct you they did. This means if needs be the Emperor will command his Wrath trough them. Somewhere in the game its mentioned that they are connected to the Emperor constantly, thats how they know what the Emperor wants, they act as proxies.

And yes the Wrath is "some freaking police officer", the Wrath does only as the Emperor/Voice commands. He does not make any decisions for the council or for anyone else, the council does not have to respect his input because he does not give his input to the council, he is not there to do so. His authority they must respect, because if the Wrath shows up at your doorstep means someone is in deep sh#t, cause you managed to piss off the Emperor himself. Sith of all ranks used to piss themselfs when Scourge appeared somewhere.

Starhawk's Avatar


Starhawk
04.10.2012 , 12:03 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Temeluchus View Post
You guys keep making the mistake of making a chain of command in the Sith power structure with the Wrath in it and above the Council. This isn't the case, the Wrath is off to the side in his own little power structure. He isn't above the Council in rank, because he doesn't exist in that power structure.
You are right. I for one know that the Wrath is "outside" of the regular chain of command because he is in a unique position of power where he only answers to the Emperor/Voice, while making no real decision by himself in terms of politics and warfare.

But when looking at it from the who answers to whom point of view he is above the council and below the Voice. The council does not have the authority to question the Wrath should he arrive and declare that a high ranking Darth is stripped of his power and is to be executed. Cause for all intents and purposes if the Wrath does declare such a thing, means that the Emperor wants it done, and who in their right mind would question the Emperor and expect to live.

Temeluchus's Avatar


Temeluchus
04.10.2012 , 12:40 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Starhawk View Post
You are right. I for one know that the Wrath is "outside" of the regular chain of command because he is in a unique position of power where he only answers to the Emperor/Voice, while making no real decision by himself in terms of politics and warfare.

But when looking at it from the who answers to whom point of view he is above the council and below the Voice. The council does not have the authority to question the Wrath should he arrive and declare that a high ranking Darth is stripped of his power and is to be executed. Cause for all intents and purposes if the Wrath does declare such a thing, means that the Emperor wants it done, and who in their right mind would question the Emperor and expect to live.
True but as I said and as the Council tells the Wrath at the end, they can reel him in if he gets out of control. All they have to do is tell the Emperor"look, the Wrath has being doing this and this and this, and I don't think you gave that command" and the Emperor is either going to call the Wrath to the carpet, tell the Council to kick rocks or ignore it.

The Council can't question the Wrath if his orders are from the Emperor, but if they suspect that the Wrath is acting on his own accord or heck, if they want to stir the pot a bit, they could report it to the Emperor.

The Wrath and Council seem to be a check and balance to the other. They don't outrank each other, they'd don't answer to one another,they can keep each other in check if need be.
"Men call me Darkstar, and I am of the night.

Captain_Zone's Avatar


Captain_Zone
04.10.2012 , 12:41 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Starhawk View Post
You are right. I for one know that the Wrath is "outside" of the regular chain of command because he is in a unique position of power where he only answers to the Emperor/Voice, while making no real decision by himself in terms of politics and warfare.

But when looking at it from the who answers to whom point of view he is above the council and below the Voice. The council does not have the authority to question the Wrath should he arrive and declare that a high ranking Darth is stripped of his power and is to be executed. Cause for all intents and purposes if the Wrath does declare such a thing, means that the Emperor wants it done, and who in their right mind would question the Emperor and expect to live.
^^^ This! I unfortunately got here a bit late to take part, but it is as Star says. The Wrath is, to put it in our terms, a Special Investigator for the Emperor. He can use his own judgment when investigating corruption or some other crime, and yes, he can actually purge/eliminate the Council if necessary. The Voice would then name the new Dark Council members.

And to a previous poster, Yes, Vowrawn is the longest sitting Council member. His strategic and tactical expertise are unmatched in the time of this game. What he lacks in raw strength or power, he more than makes up for in intelligence (and a helluva sense of humor).
. OPOD
Shivalka: Darth Baras is quite large, isn't he?
Joran Karn: You, my dear Sith, have just mastered the art of understatement.

Temeluchus's Avatar


Temeluchus
04.10.2012 , 02:43 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Captain_Zone View Post
^^^ This! I unfortunately got here a bit late to take part, but it is as Star says. The Wrath is, to put it in our terms, a Special Investigator for the Emperor. He can use his own judgment when investigating corruption or some other crime, and yes, he can actually purge/eliminate the Council if necessary. The Voice would then name the new Dark Council members.

And to a previous poster, Yes, Vowrawn is the longest sitting Council member. His strategic and tactical expertise are unmatched in the time of this game. What he lacks in raw strength or power, he more than makes up for in intelligence (and a helluva sense of humor).
Did you make all this up?

I can't imagine the Wrath casually strolling into the Council chambers and executing Darth Marr without an edict from the Emperor. I'm sure the Wrath is given lots of free reign with the average Sith and Imperial but a Council member execution probably needs at least a nod from the Emperor without very good cause.

Start purging your ruling government body of the ruling class of the Empire without an edict or writ from the Emperor would be a good excuse for the Council to actively start attempting to overthrow the Emperor. I'm sure the Wrath can be like the KGB and knock on some doors in the middle of the night to a majority of Imperials, but Council members and possibly some high ranking Moffs are probably exceptions.

We can't even really point to anything Scourge did in his tenure as the Wrath and use it as precedence because logic dictates the Emperor made some changes to the Wrath's position and power, and incorporated some failsafes and countermeasures after Scourge's betrayal.

We know from the SI class story at least some of Council appointments are made by the Council themselves without the apparent knowledge of the Voice or the Emperor.
"Men call me Darkstar, and I am of the night.

Captain_Zone's Avatar


Captain_Zone
04.10.2012 , 03:01 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Temeluchus View Post
Did you make all this up?

I can't imagine the Wrath casually strolling into the Council chambers and executing Darth Marr without an edict from the Emperor. I'm sure the Wrath is given lots of free reign with the average Sith and Imperial but a Council member execution probably needs at least a nod from the Emperor without very good cause.

Start purging your ruling government body of the ruling class of the Empire without an edict or writ from the Emperor would be a good excuse for the Council to actively start attempting to overthrow the Emperor. I'm sure the Wrath can be like the KGB and knock on some doors in the middle of the night to a majority of Imperials, but Council members and possibly some high ranking Moffs are probably exceptions.

We can't even really point to anything Scourge did in his tenure as the Wrath and use it as precedence because logic dictates the Emperor made some changes to the Wrath's position and power, and incorporated some failsafes and countermeasures after Scourge's betrayal.

We know from the SI class story at least some of Council appointments are made by the Council themselves without the apparent knowledge of the Voice or the Emperor.
Pardon me for not clarifying further. He would of course have to consult the Emperor's Voice or Hand as to the results of the investigation, and IF NECESSARY i.e. AT THE EMPEROR'S ORDER, he would then purge/eliminate the Council. There. Hope that cleared it up for you.

Apologies. Still getting used to typing on this Droid.
. OPOD
Shivalka: Darth Baras is quite large, isn't he?
Joran Karn: You, my dear Sith, have just mastered the art of understatement.