Who Swtor was made for.

In all regards, my point was about 1.2 & the direction the game is taking. In PTS story mode isnt easy. Healing is so tense and mistakes are grave. And no, I m not a full rakata geared player - I shouldnt be just for story mode.

For the ease of conversation lets say that there are 3 kind of guilds, the elite, the hardcore and the casual guilds. The first two are very vocal, they want to prove their superiority over other peoples, or to prove their skills (to whom I wonder), or just want a really tough challenge (for which I ve already expressed my opinion) and the game doesnt offer them that chance (currently), since a) the content is easy and anyone can complete it, b) gear is easily obtainable by all kinds of players. The casual guilds are happy with the way the things are. Since the first 2 want the changes, they protest, express their dissatisfaction at the forums, even start "doomsday" threads (aka the game will go FTP, we will all leave, etc). Any real casual wont bother to get in a fight (even a verbal one) over just a game - there are more important things in life to fight for, so you get which people will get the attention and the catering ...

We were made fully aware of that going in and it was pushed as a selling feature.

I was certainly aware, from everything produced prior to release, that this was a story driven MMO (ala ME series). What I didn't plan for was the total disconnect with end-game and re-playability being somewhat dubious (certainly don't get this in two beta weekends). The stories don't diverge enough nor hold my interest enough to keep me "alting" for "end-game". That's the rub for me.

We all know that more sandbox elements would help for end game, but what we currently have is exactly what I expected us to have. PVP and raids, and dailies for the people who don't like either one.

Threads like this should have a definition table of some words and expressions, as seen by the OP.

I'm saying this because, i.e., Hardcore Played can mean an infinitude of different things for different people.

What is Hardcore?

What is Casual?

Some good points were made here, and one of the best "words" used here is "Niche".
It's completely understandable that a game where they spent millions will be aimed to the wider slice of the audience. It's understandable for even an "hardcore-niche" player, if that player is not completely self-centered on his view.

A game like this couldn't be made for niche audience. It has to roll out for the wider audience, and maybe, just maybe, if things go right, add "hardcore" content in the future to please the niche audience.

For now, the game is what the game is.

Hardcore.. that word gets batted around so much that it barely resembles anything of it's actual meaning anymore. Trying to classify players as 'hardcore' is the worst because there really isn't a hardcore (or softcore) player. Only particular games can be considered 'hardcore'.

Examples?

Final Fantasy 11 (FFXI). EvE. Darkfall. Lineage. DAoC. Everquest.

All of those games are considered 'hardcore' by many of the people that play (played) them but for different reasons.

Some like Lineage, Everquest, and FFXI really just demanded your time as the hardcore factor (the longer you play, the stronger you get).

Others like Darkfall and EvE were considered hardcore because many things were permanent upon death of your character as in, other people can take your stuffs. You kept your 'skill' but that could be all if you weren't smart about gameplay.

DAoC was considered by those who played it as some kind of 'hardcore' pvp game. Having never played it I can't understand why because it just sounded like a casual game to me; log in, get with your faction and do pvp til your eyes fall out in RvR. Since it was a game built on massive groups of people fighting, you didn't have to be hardcore because your faction was so large it covered your 'softness'. You could succeed just by being on the right side which doesn't sound hardcore at all.


Personally, I never consider ANY game that is able to be macro'ed in any way and played with just three buttons or required a metric crapton of addons just to play it "hardcore".. how could it be? You simply download the programs you need to make it gameplay 'softcore' easy, read/follow some guides and just do exactly what they say do and..voila! You're now a "hardcore" player because you played a 'hardcore' game and beat X boss with 50 addons, your Nostromo and your Steel Series programmable keyboard.

1) MMOs that don't have "hardcore" players are MMOs that are dying. And the reason, in my view, is that ideally a MMO is a massive self-sustaining virtual world that really has no beginning nor end. (Obviously they do have beginnings and ends, but in the heart of a good MMO one can barely tell.) Anytime you have this situation of a self-sustaining virtual world, hardcore gamers will be there. When the content is endless, more effort and time is always better.

SWTOR's problem is that it isn't a MMORPG, it is a SPOG (single-player online game). It isn't a massive virtual world in which there is endless content and community driven activity. It is a single player game that, like all single player games, has a beginning and end. Consequently, it doesn't allow for hardcore gaming anymore than Mass Effect allows for hardcore gaming. All hardcore gamers manage to achieve is that they finish the game faster than everyone else.

2) I believe SWTOR represents the end of this "single player online game" design philosophy which has been the bane of the mmorpg world for almost a decade.

Since WoW demonstrated that most mmo players spend their time soloing, game after game after game has come out with this quest-based soloing design philosophy, each one failed, and each one blamed their failures on not pursuing this philosophy hard enough! "Grouping" became a bad word; "hardcore" became derogatory; and the well-balanced citizen with a job and a real life became the MMO ideal. These "casuals", as they were called, had too much real life to really want a virtual life, so developers figured that there must be something wrong with the "life" aspect of online games -- and that translated into throwing out the socializing aspects of these games and focusing instead on the solo experience. Solo experience for the tired citizens who comes home from work, sick and tired of people, and just wants to chill out in from of the TV . . . I mean, PC . . . for a few hours before bed. They want the SPOG.

Now they've tried it, now they've put every last cent into the ultimate SPOG . . . and the consensus: the game is failing. Perhaps you can blame it on the scifi genre, perhaps you can blame in on the lack of PvP (actually, that is a pretty valid concern), perhaps on the stability or performance, but all of these excuses -- which have worked for failed SPOGs in the past -- fall short because everyone knows this game was the ultimate SPOG.

The problem isn't the graphics, character customization, or too much advertising. The problem is that the SPOG philosophy doesn't work (well) and with that realization the dark age of MMOs (the WoW period) is, in my opinion, finally coming to an end.

In today's backwards logic?

Do you have these things:

1. Programmable macro keyboard?

2. Programmable macro mouse?

3. Programmable macro speciality item like Nostromo?

4. Dual SLI/Triple SLI, two/three video card setup for your rig?

5. Complete player guides you follow like a Bible written by XJunkies, XClan, or Xwhatever?

6. Macros downloaded for every situation you might come across?



If you only have 1-2 of those, you may not be 'hardcore'.

The "dark age" that brought MMO's into the main stream and provided entertainment for millions of people instead of hundreds of thousands?


Sandbox MMO's don't thrive, and just because a game isn't a sandbox hardly means it isn't an MMO

I like these definitions of the different terms. Yes I think I find a way to paraphrase them into a sig.

On topic.

I never played wow. I didn't like the aesthetic and traditional MMO combat bores me.

(Yes I know swtor has traditional MMO combat and I hate it.)

The best MMOs I've played always made pvp the endgame where pve was simply there to fuel the endgame pvp in terms of gear, levels, crafting resources, and money.

The hook to those games though was that winning in the pvp of those games would then provide a boost to the pve side of those games. So winning in pvp would garner you more money from mobs, more crafting resources, cheaper store prices for armor etc.

This game currently doesn't do anything like that for its endgame. Right now its endgame doesn't revolve around developer designed mechanics but around developer designed content.

And that's the problem swtor has, like it's been said swtor is an amusement park ride and you can only ride the same roller coaster so many times before it becomes boring.

Instead of building us more roller coasters they need to build us a playground where we can essentially make our own fun.

In other words instead of endgame flashpoints, and operations following a wow route, they need endgame pvp systems that have an effect on the entire server. Whether that system is akin to base/castle/fort/town sieges, or open world guild land grabbing depends on the devs.

But until then swtor will follow an ebb and flow model where people come and go as new flashpoints and operations are released and take breaks after finishing the new content.