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When can we expect to see a nerf of the Hybrid Sin/Shadow? + Proposed changes

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
When can we expect to see a nerf of the Hybrid Sin/Shadow? + Proposed changes

Varicite's Avatar


Varicite
04.04.2012 , 12:33 PM | #111
Quote: Originally Posted by Astarica View Post
Even DPS classes don't do 500K in a regular match of Huttball. A good one might do 350K and he'd have to be not touching the ball most of the time. 350K is about the limit of what any DPS can do in a match while making a realistic effort toward winning.

On the other hand getting 50K isn't hard at all in a normal match if you used Guard. Guarding the Huttball carrier is usually worth at least 10K protection each time you do it.

I've had games I put up 50K protection without using Guard but I don't consider those stats meaningful the same way I don't consider 500K+ DPS to be meaningful.

If you take a game of Huttball, if a Marauder does 350K the tank Assassin can do 300K/60K protect, and both will have similar healing numbers. Howeve the 60K protect will generally be much more useful than doing 50K more damage and that's where the imbalance is. In an extended Voidstar brawl you might see a Marauder do 500/0/100 and a tank Assassin do 700/100/100 but those numbers actually don't mean much.
While you and I are basically saying the same thing, I don't think I agree that an Assassin tank doing 300k damage in Huttball is being very useful to his team in general.

But I understand it was just an example. : P
Quote: Originally Posted by JayPres View Post
Strap your digital dog to your digital roof and take your ideologies, lovely wife, and sweet little 8yr old girl to a PVE server where you fit best.

Kriesha's Avatar


Kriesha
04.04.2012 , 12:40 PM | #112
Quote: Originally Posted by Astarica View Post
If you take a game of Huttball, if a Marauder does 350K the tank Assassin can do 300K/60K protect, and both will have similar healing numbers. Howeve the 60K protect will generally be much more useful than doing 50K more damage and that's where the imbalance is. In an extended Voidstar brawl you might see a Marauder do 500/0/100 and a tank Assassin do 700/100/100 but those numbers actually don't mean much.
Except Marauders targets die a hell of a lot faster.

DaxxDeathStrike's Avatar


DaxxDeathStrike
04.04.2012 , 12:42 PM | #113
Quote: Originally Posted by trakata View Post
Also, can we please stop calling Shadow tanks with stalker gear "hybrids?" They are not hybrids. They are tanks in dps gear, because putting tanks in full tank gear is not very useful for PVP. The hybrid 23/0/18 spec died a long time ago.
I have to agree a tank spec in dps gear does not make them a hybrid spec. If bioware learned they failed at making tank stats work in pvp and changed them to be useful you would see alot more run around in their tank gear until they fix tank stats you will continue to see most tanks in dps gear tho

Astarica's Avatar


Astarica
04.04.2012 , 12:42 PM | #114
Quote: Originally Posted by Varicite View Post
While you and I are basically saying the same thing, I don't think I agree that an Assassin tank doing 300k damage in Huttball is being very useful to his team in general.

But I understand it was just an example. : P
In an ideal situation you could get away with less damage for the Assassin, but usually someone has to play defense and/or get the ball back, and both of that activity requires killing people.

Honestly the Marauder shouldn't even have 350K damage in a good team effort either because he should be running the ball at least some of the time.

Neamhan's Avatar


Neamhan
04.04.2012 , 12:43 PM | #115
Quote: Originally Posted by Astarica View Post
However, the Assassin also does full damage as a tank.
What do you mean by 'full damage'? I hope you don't mean the same damage as a Damage specced class, because that would be absolutely incorrect. You make thoughtful posts, so I'll ask you (since not a single person has answered this question yet): How much damage do you think a tank should do, as a percentage of a Damage spec. If a Damage class does 100% damage, what percentage should a Tank do?

Quote:
He's also the best healer in the game that isn't healer speced, tied with Marauder. Yes he can only heal himself but like the Marauder he does this healing with no impact to his DPS game. He's even better than the healer archtype classes who are speced for DPS. If you're a Sor/Op/Merc speced for DPS, each point of healing you do costs you at least 1 point of damage, usually a lot more since your ability to do damage is generally much better than your ability to heal. You'll see Marauder/Darkness beat the healing output of any DPS speced 'healer' classes in WZ quite comfortably, simply because trying to heal in any meaningful numbers severely gimps any kind of DPS spec for those classes.
In the specific circumstance of healing while simultaneously doing damage, yes. But the Damage specs with cast heals can 1) Line of sight or CC an attacker to heal while in combat and 2) throw out a heal on others if it's absolutely needed. So I could just as easily say that Assassins are tied for the worst 'healer' in the game when a ball carrier needs one crucial heal to buy them enough time to throw the ball or score. It all depends on the circumstance.

Self healing is the tool the devs gave to Assassins to make up for their poor (relative to other tanks) DR. It's not much of an advantage when there are healers present, such as on a raid, since the Assassin will be taking greater incoming damage due to the lower DR. In PvP though it can scale very well depending on the circumstance. The longer a fight goes on, the more effective health an Assassin will have because of the heal. So in a duel, it's outstanding. In that case, every 3 buff stacked Force Lightning effectively increases your health pool by 12% if you aren't at max health. However, as more attackers focus on the Assassin the heal gets less and less valuable because the extra damage you're taking due to the lower DR becomes greater than the amount you're healing. In that case, having a higher DR becomes superior because you would have mitigated more damage than the heal would have healed. Where the break point is depends on the amount of incoming damage, as not all Damage dealers are the same.

TLDR: the self heal makes an Assassin very strong 1v1, but the lower DR makes them squishier than other tanks when focused by multiple attackers.

Quote:
Finally, some of those comparison is just ridiculous, like comparing AE snare ability of Jugg versus Assassin. Wither, if it only build a stack of HD and hits only a single target, is still a good rotation move (better DPF than Thrash). Therefore you can consider the AE damage + AE snare + AE debuff aspect of it to be totally free because you'd use it as a single target Thrash even if it did none of that. Therefore, the side effects on Thrash can be considered free.

On the other hand, an AE snare fromo a Jugg uses 2 rage (can be talented to 1), and it also does no damage. It's certainly not a rotation move in any kind of DPS-producing sequence. Its sole purpose is to snare guys around you and yet it's more costly than Wither which snares everyone as a side effect. It's actually the same argument as Force Slow versus Wither. Yes in theory Force Slow is a better slow (50%) but it does no damage, so you're wasting a GCD to just snare someone instead of doing damage. With Wither, you're still doing your maximum damage and snaring the opponent while maintaining that DPS.
Force Slow is inferior to Wither because it's only single target, otherwise it would definitely be worth using for the superior snare. A comparison of Wither and Freezing Force is absolutely valid when comparing the utility of an Assassin and Guardian. When you want to snare a group, Freezing Force does not need a target, is spammable as long as you have the 1 point to spend on it and is a 50% snare rather than a 30% snare. The tradeoff is Wither does ~450 base kinetic damage, has a 7.5 second cooldown, requires a target but the AoE is centered around that target, which can be up to 10m away.

Jarfunkz's Avatar


Jarfunkz
04.04.2012 , 01:00 PM | #116
TLDR: the self heal makes an Assassin very strong 1v1, but the lower DR makes them squishier than other tanks when focused by multiple attackers.

Not when you have 20%+ defensive roll... that actually makes you stronger (40%+20%)=60%, that is 7% more than a dps geared tank spec for both other tanks... Numbers are hard bruh.
VicVega

Neamhan's Avatar


Neamhan
04.04.2012 , 01:08 PM | #117
Quote: Originally Posted by Jarfunkz View Post
TLDR: the self heal makes an Assassin very strong 1v1, but the lower DR makes them squishier than other tanks when focused by multiple attackers.

Not when you have 20%+ defensive roll... that actually makes you stronger (40%+20%)=60%, that is 7% more than a dps geared tank spec for both other tanks... Numbers are hard bruh.
If you mean the Defense stat then:

- Defense is not added to DR. Defense is checked first, if it fails then Shield is checked and DR is applied.
- Assassins have ~20% more Defense than Vanguards, but it's about the same as Guardians. Vanguards have the highest DR to make up for it.
- Defense and Shield do not apply to Force or Tech attacks, which makes up a large number (if not most) of the attacks in PvP.

The numbers are more complex than you thought, eh brah?

Varicite's Avatar


Varicite
04.04.2012 , 01:10 PM | #118
Quote: Originally Posted by Jarfunkz View Post
Not when you have 20%+ defensive roll... that actually makes you stronger (40%+20%)=60%, that is 7% more than a dps geared tank spec for both other tanks... Numbers are hard bruh.
You should try to actually be correct when trying to make someone look silly w/ math.

<.<
Quote: Originally Posted by JayPres View Post
Strap your digital dog to your digital roof and take your ideologies, lovely wife, and sweet little 8yr old girl to a PVE server where you fit best.

heikaze's Avatar


heikaze
04.04.2012 , 01:15 PM | #119
Quote: Originally Posted by Neamhan View Post
If you mean the Defense stat then:

- Defense is not added to DR. Defense is checked first, if it fails then Shield is checked and DR is applied.
- Assassins have ~20% more Defense than Vanguards, but it's about the same as Guardians. Vanguards have the highest DR to make up for it.
- Defense and Shield do not apply to Force or Tech attacks, which makes up a large number (if not most) of the attacks in PvP.

The numbers are more complex than you thought, eh brah?
Their cool down are better than other tanks for PvP. It's not about defense and migrating damage, but more of 5 second Force Shroud and Deflection when being focused. With vanish and juggling those cool down with their self-heal, makes them high survivability with great DPS output.


Funny how this thread reached over 1000 response and people are still trying to defend their class so hard.

Cowflab's Avatar


Cowflab
04.04.2012 , 01:15 PM | #120
Quote: Originally Posted by Varicite View Post
You should try to actually be correct when trying to make someone look silly w/ math.

<.<
This.