You win, I give up on my Juggernaut.

Dude no offense, but did you even read what the OP posted? Here's the summary:

* Heavy armor doesnt do much
* Tank class, but similar health to other classes
* cooldowns are really bad on defensive talents
* Force push has issues due to client-server differences
* Immortal spec you get invincible, but again long cooldown. Your dps as a tank in immortal ISN'T ON PAR WITH OTHER TANKS (no one is talking about being a full on dps here)
* Rage spec is good, but come 1.2 marauders rage will be even better (because they have other things as well, so why spec rage in juggernaut)?

NO ONE SO FAR HAS FOCUSED ON ANY OF THESE POINTS THE OP HAS MADE.

So I should have to re-spec 2-3 times a day because I jump between pvp and tanking ops bosses? I wish they had told me this when I chose my class at level 1 and advanced class at level 10.

All things aside, I actually *LOVE* playing my juggernaut. I really do. I love the playstyle, and the utility. But I'm sure things could be done to improve all the obvious shortcomings that the op has brought up.

What does class have to do with anything when PvE oriented spec and a PvP oriented spec are generally different, and you have to do that regardless of your class if you want to be competitive at either?

And to stay on topic, let me address your summary:

1. Irrelevant, applies to everyone.
2. The game balances tanks around having higher pve mitigation/avoidance, not significantly higher health pools. Unfortunately this isn't helpful in pvp, hence why it is recommended you use dps gear in pvp instead of actual tank gear.
3. Not bad, long.
4. Applies to any knockback in the game in the presence of lag.
5. I've seen differently, again in dps gear. See the videos that were posted.
6. His point was that Marauders have quick recovery to make them better "smash monkeys" (except they lose quick recovery so from that perspective, not really). Also his points about heavy handed in the tank spec are kind of pointless seeing as single saber mastery will now work for Soresu form, giving 6% damage to all other skills (including the ones that lose damage in heavy handed so the nerf for that is negligible with the exception being possibly smash).

That cover everything?

There's so much that's wrong with this method of comparing the two specs that it's not even funny.

You know what else the other tanks have? People qqing in their class forums about how they are inferior and need to be buffed. You cant focus on everything the other classes are good at, belittle what juggs are good at and cry imbalance. I have played my jugg up to rank 78 now with very little time on alts and consistently beat the tar out of people in my vengeance spec. Not to mention I have probably scored hundreds of times in huttball and healer friends say I am one of the easiest people they know to keep alive. Either your playstyle isnt meshing with the class or you run with some really bad players. After all every class sucks on a crappy team.

I'll bite, fine.

1) The thing is every other class in heavy armor (including powertechs which people love to whine about) have to deal with the issue of armor not being as impressive as it should be. Is it poor design? Sure, but again, it's not like we're the only people being singled out.

2) We make up for our lower health pools in other ways. While it's unfortunate that sonic barrier doesn't scale, it's saved my *** more times than I'd like to think.

3) Our CDs are decent. Endure pain is a scumbag CD which works best when you have another healer, but Blade ward is fantastic. It absolutely shuts down damage from every melee class in the game and neuters non-lethality snipers and ops.

4) Again, we can dps just as well as any other tank spec out there if we swap mods out. Even if you pick up the war leader gear, you can optimize your gear to work in tandem with damage dealing. It's what EVERY good player in the game does, and it's a habit you should get into if you want to get the best out of your class. Invincible is a strong CD, I don't know why people give it so much hate, but it's damn good at keeping you alive as a tank.

5) *facepalm* You play a juggernaut not only to deal damage, but to provide defensive utility via taunts and yes, swapping forms to give people guard. I do it ALL the time, no matter what spec I am, because it helps my team. I've seen games where juggernauts do 600k+ damage, but have no guard whatsoever on their entire team, that, to me at least, means that all they want to do is tunnel damage and while I'm not saying that Marauders only tunnel damage, it's readily apparent to me that these juggernauts rolled the wrong class. They would have been better off playing marauder and providing OFFENSIVE group utility.

We are NOT a broken class by any stretch of the imagination. Gear and group dependent? Most certainly.

Jugs have the most flexibility AND mobility out of the other tank classes.

Jug is the only class as far as I know, that has a playstyle that can play both burst and protection roles on an above average basis, that being going into Rage and playing as Soresu. Being able to put out 300k+ damage while doing 100k-200k protection is kinda nuts if you ask me.

They don't have 2 stuns. They have an incapacitate and a stun, and there is a huge difference between the two.

If you spec up into backhand, juggernauts had 2 stuns and an aoe incapacitate.


Yes it does. If you are against Rage Jugs, the damage is kinetic. Me hitting someone in heavy armor makes the difference between smashing them for 7k with cooldowns used and only hitting them for 5k with cooldowns used.


The class has other aspects that keep it alive. Mobility, ability to ignore most barriers and gaps, etc.


I wouldn't say they are bad. Manage them properly and use defensive cooldowns only when more then 2+ people are attacking you when you don't have a healer with you. And honestly, shortening the cooldown of invincible would become OP and they would have to nerf the damage protected if they were to shorten the CD.

Be more careful and adapt.


You can fill defensive roles while not being in immortal. Immortal emphasizes control and more rage generation while in soresu. You can go Rage and stay in soresu and do as well as these other tanks.

I'm not really sure how other classes operate, but I know jugs are pretty damn good at being able to go into soresu while in what ever spec and being able to guard and taunt while only sacrificing rage generation, which can be fixed with proper uses of Enrage and other rage builders.


* Rage spec is good, but come 1.2 marauders rage will be even better (because they have other things as well, so why spec rage in juggernaut)?

Marauders won't be able to do the same amount of damage while mitigating 45% physical damage. They won't be able to force charge nearly twice as often. Etc, etc.

Posts like these are fun because they only focus on the subjective negative aspects of the class and leave out all the good things.

Maybe you don't like this class. That's fine. However, that doesn't mean the class is broken. It just means it may not fit your play-style. If you really like Rage and just want to run around slaughtering people then a Marauder is probably going to be more fun for you.

My Jugg Intercedes an ally, AoE taunts, Pushes an enemy away, taunts another, and drops its aoe stun/snare. Then laughs as my enemies hit like wet noodles and my ally gets away.

My Jugg grabs the Huttball, Intercedes and ally, Charges over the flames, Pushes an enemy off the catwalk, then charges again to score a goal. My Marauder can't do that.

Again... You may not enjoy your Jugg. But that doesn't mean there's something wrong with the class. Each class has a pretty unique style in this game and for good reason; to give players a choice.

oh hey schwarz! you ready to get stomped again? let the fun begin.

oh go read up on some other threat you got bashed in about rage soresu, not starting that again.

mobility is higher yes but only vs a bad team where they let you charge respawns.

assassin tanks do more then 300k dmg with the same amount of protection.

so spike is not classified as a stun, but it still makes the target unable to move or use any ability's. same result. it's also on half the cd of the stuns juggs have.
so the difference between the sins stun and knock down aint that huge, it's non excistant.

i already said juggs have an aoe stun, l2 read.

Only one map where you charge up into those situations. This mobility can be used in closing distances where transfering to different points in Alderaan, like charging into a group of enemies attempting to attack a point you are defending, pushing one, aoe incapacicating the rest, then interceding/charging up onto the point. The same thing is true on voidstar when you need to quickly move to another door need to leave a situation in the tunnels.

Best part about this mobility is that nothing can stop you once you are mobile, unlike sprint in which you can be rooted/slowed.


An assassin in DPS gear is much easier to kill and control then a juggernaut in DPS gear.


Stop acting like incapacitates and stuns are the same thing, they are not.


If I recall in that other thread, you didn't really seem to address my final points and the only people who did seemed to think that I was 'graced' by having a healer. And if their arguments boil down to not having a healer, then their arguments can't be taken seriously. Its group PvP, not solo pvp. The game is balanced for group pvp. Get a healer.

Thank you for taking the time to address these. I hope more people can jump in on the discussion.

1. Actually it is VERY relevant. I'm glad you agree that heavy armor doesnt do much. Sure a BH in heavy armor takes as much damage as me in heavy armor. Problem is that the BH is a DPS spec that will dish out tons of damage also. My immortal is a tank spec that supposedly relies on this heavy armor to protect me, which it doesn't do.

2. Again, seems that you are at least somewhat agreeing that the health pool is a problem. But I'm sorry, to me, using dps gear on a tank in pvp is an indication that somthing is awfully broken in tank specs (for pvp). I don't want to be a wannabe-dps. I want to feel somewhat like a tank in pvp, especially when Bioware claimed that tanks will be viable in pvp.

3. I called it bad because it's never there when I need it in pvp. Yes, the point is that 3 min is way too long. I think you seem to agree.

4. Most AoE knockbacks are on dps/heal classes that don't really seem to care *where* the person that is knocked back lands, as long as the person is away from said knockbacker (or off the platform in huttball). Applying force push in huttball, I most certainly *do* care where the person lands, because I am gonna be charging him next and he better land closer to the goal line. Seems like the lag problem is worsened in my case. Although I will concede that there doesn't seem to be much bioware can do about this.

5. While I respect your choice to play your tank in dps gear, I want to be able to wear tank gear that (hopefully should) increase my survivability as a tank, and have similar dps to sintanks that are in their tank gear. After all it's about balance.