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A response to Combat Designers at the Guild Summit: On Fixing Tank gear in PvP.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
A response to Combat Designers at the Guild Summit: On Fixing Tank gear in PvP.

EthanThristam's Avatar


EthanThristam
03.31.2012 , 01:02 PM | #11
Allow me to respond to your feedback. The comment on gap closer relates more to if they choose to keep DPS sins/shadows at the same level of damage resistance as an option and involves making the 20 second force speed movement breaker, 5 second resilience and force pull as base skills to add utility. Obviously this is not ideal, but I'm offering an alternative. To respond to the comment on this solely belonging to shadows as having an easy time against the aforementioned classes. Not so. All tanks with defensive stats take infinitely longer to bring down by a Gunslinger which I play as my primary alternate. Their problem may relate to inherently lower DPS which prolongs their fight against them and the lack of ability to always close the gap. But most of the good players of these classes do not consider white damage DPSers a threat. This holds consistent due to their base armor, mitigation, defense, shield and absorption.

Ansultares's Avatar


Ansultares
03.31.2012 , 05:10 PM | #12
No.

It's still unnecessarily gimp.

Either tanks mitigate everything at the cost of their DPS, or just let them DPS.

This half-and-half BS is so lame, and usually just results in unnecessary DPS/utility hits for tank classes that still get blown up by focus fire, even if it takes three GCDs instead of two.

Quote: Originally Posted by EthanThristam View Post
I want to feel like an actual tank.
Go PvE then.

EthanThristam's Avatar


EthanThristam
03.31.2012 , 06:22 PM | #13
No. And I'm sorry that you feel that way.

The spec is specifically built for tanking, and tanking utility. Darkness and Kinetic Combat both. And its exceptionally good at it.

It was never meant to supplant Deception or Infiltration as the PvP spec of choice for damage, nor Madness/Balance. That's the point. You're meant to play those specs if you want to do damage in PvP.

The damage in kinetic combat and darkness is not overly bursty except when you pop all cooldowns, but its too good in DPS gear as a sustained DPS with our survivability tools.

I don't want those tools nerfed, I want the people who want to DPS, to actually play DPS specs.

Do you know how many tanking assassins or shadows there were in PvP on average prior to the dark charge in Deception/Combat Trance in Infiltration nerf? Not very many. But now everyone is playing Kinetic Combat or Darkness as the Flavor of the Month spec.

And guess what? Most people are terrible at it, but their survivability puts them far above what other classes can do in their lifespan.

No, I'm not going to stay silent and say that I should be able to do amazing DPS and have some of the best survivability in the game. I care about the game, and I care about actual balance.

I want tank gear to be useful and balanced in PvP, and I want tank specs to be just that, actual tanks that are worthwhile in PvP.

I want the DPS specs to all be worth playing, and don't want any of them to feel like a third wheel when rated come around, Operatives/Scoundrels, Combat Sentinels/Carnage Marauders, Gunslingers/Snipers, and Shadow/Assassin Infiltration/Deception/Balance/Madness all need help. Some specs are addressed in the next patch, but most aren't.

And if we let this continue then the problem will only get worse. Tanks should not be something you should stack in rated for their DAMAGE, they should be utilized for their utility, guard/taunt and objective oriented capabilities.

So again I implore the developers, look into making tanking stats actually useful in PvP since most classes utilize yellow tech/force damage. Look into making DPS gear less powerful while in tanking stances. If you care about this game, its balance, and having longevity, then it needs to be done, and soon.

StormStride's Avatar


StormStride
03.31.2012 , 09:38 PM | #14
darkness/kinetic sins working as intended. more pew-pew less qq imo.

Cempa's Avatar


Cempa
04.01.2012 , 04:33 AM | #15
You are looking at it the wrong way, they should reduce all damage done while in tank stance by a further xx%. Now what is better, DPS gear or tank gear?

The TankaSin is the most OP build in PvP to date and will be nurfed without a doubt right after 1.2 goes live because its damage is too high..far too high in light of how much it mitigates.

Neamhan's Avatar


Neamhan
04.01.2012 , 01:01 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Cempa View Post
You are looking at it the wrong way, they should reduce all damage done while in tank stance by a further xx%. Now what is better, DPS gear or tank gear?

The TankaSin is the most OP build in PvP to date and will be nurfed without a doubt right after 1.2 goes live because its damage is too high..far too high in light of how much it mitigates.
Is that a trick question? The more you just straight up nerf the damage, the better the DPS gear gets over the tank gear to try to make up the difference. Same reason why it was the nerfing of stance changing that lead so many Shadows to go Kinetic.

You want to find a way to make the DPS set less attractive to tank specs in PvP then be my guest. Straight up nerfing damage is the worst thing they could do and will just wreck the people actually using the survivor gear, which is the opposite of what people claim they want.

Tiresias's Avatar


Tiresias
04.01.2012 , 01:26 PM | #17
This is an outright terrible suggestion. Why would anyone advocate reducing the options available to tank specs? It sounds like a thinly-veiled nerfhearding post to me.

If you want tanks to wear tank gear in PvP you don't do that by forcing it upon them by making DPS gear worthless; you fix the problem by making the tank stats worthwhile across the board. Defensive stats should work against almost all forms of incoming damage, even if it operates in a different manner (i.e. Defense Chance gives a chance to completely avoid melee/ranged attacks and grants a flat damage reduction against Force/Tech attacks).

Limiting the options for tank specs not only doesn't make sense for PvP, it doesn't make sense for PvE either. Tanks still need to level, they still need to do daily quests, and they still need to run Flashpoints as DPS in groups that aren't perfect. The ability to throw on a set of DPS gear and contribute increased damage -- even if not on the level of a pure DPS -- needs to be there.

EthanThristam's Avatar


EthanThristam
04.01.2012 , 03:00 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Tiresias View Post
This is an outright terrible suggestion. Why would anyone advocate reducing the options available to tank specs? It sounds like a thinly-veiled nerfhearding post to me.

If you want tanks to wear tank gear in PvP you don't do that by forcing it upon them by making DPS gear worthless; you fix the problem by making the tank stats worthwhile across the board. Defensive stats should work against almost all forms of incoming damage, even if it operates in a different manner (i.e. Defense Chance gives a chance to completely avoid melee/ranged attacks and grants a flat damage reduction against Force/Tech attacks).

Limiting the options for tank specs not only doesn't make sense for PvP, it doesn't make sense for PvE either. Tanks still need to level, they still need to do daily quests, and they still need to run Flashpoints as DPS in groups that aren't perfect. The ability to throw on a set of DPS gear and contribute increased damage -- even if not on the level of a pure DPS -- needs to be there.
You're taking my post out of context. What I'm asking for are dual rulesets for PvE and PvP. If a tank wants to gimp themselves in PvE wearing DPS gear instead of respeccing waiting for dual specs, knock themselves out. Tank gear is useful is enough already there. I'm asking that when fighting players alone, that +power has no effect in the respective tank stances. Given that, do you still think my changes are terrible suggestions?

Korevas's Avatar


Korevas
04.01.2012 , 03:59 PM | #19
Wow, I am really astounded by their blindfoldedness to the issue. Regardless of stats, in a pure pvp environment, defensive stats never scale as well as offensive ones do simply because excess "tanking power" will not get you anything if your basic (read: hybrid) tanking power was good enough to keep you alive to begin with.
More damage, on the other hand, will enable you to kill the enemy quicker, which obviously always provides a benefit to your team.

This is why people go hybrid; their tanking skills are covered by base stats and gear well enough, and so they chose to convert their stat budget on items into damage.

I too believe they will cave in at some time and just nerf sins to oblivion when enough people continue to whine about it. After all, this was what made them destroy operatives.