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No to stat sticks!


Caelrie's Avatar


Caelrie
03.29.2012 , 09:12 PM | #11
SWTOR definitely has too many jedi classes. Splitting a Jedi up into 4 classes was a terrible idea that leaves all of them feeling like less than a Jedi. But it's too late to fix now.

ocping's Avatar


ocping
03.29.2012 , 09:41 PM | #12
Sage = mage.

/thread

danielweberdlc's Avatar


danielweberdlc
03.29.2012 , 10:06 PM | #13
Saying it makes sense isn't the same as asking for a change.

Giving a person a light saber and then telling them they shouldn't hit anything with it is like giving a young boy a drum and telling him not to hit it. You would think the temptation, even for Sages, would be overwhelming. how can you not whack a bad guy with that thing?

ArlindoGMNeto's Avatar


ArlindoGMNeto
03.30.2012 , 01:39 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by ocping View Post
Sage = mage.

/thread
No, thank you.
-Sir, were surrounded!

-Good! Now we can attack them from any direction.

ArlindoGMNeto's Avatar


ArlindoGMNeto
03.30.2012 , 01:47 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by denpic View Post
Roll a Jedi night if you want to melee
Why would you choose a range
Class then expect/demand it to be able to melee
Were not demanding anything, were merely stating that this whole concept of a jedi that IGNORES the weapon that is the symbol of his Order is just plain WRONG.

If i wanted to play a mage, id stick with fantasy games. Trying to make a JEDI to be like a mage is such a freaking disgrace.

BTW, JK has the worse animations of the whole game (well, the animations in this game are pretty much ALL bad anyway). Thats one of the reasons why i rolled a Consular. I dont wanna hold a lightsaber like a baseball bat.
-Sir, were surrounded!

-Good! Now we can attack them from any direction.

Assam's Avatar


Assam
03.30.2012 , 04:30 AM | #16
You have 3 Classes completely devoted to the saber, who are melee classes, who use the Force.

Can you really not allow that there is one class devoted to the Force more than the others? The Jedi started out learning the Force first, check the lore on it - they brought the sabers in second, well the Sith brought in the ones you are familiar with now, but nonetheless, a Jedi is predominantly a Force user, that is their wont.

You've brought this up on another thread and I've done my best to explain to you that the Sage is a ranged class who DOES have melee options but the Sage is too squishy to fight in close combat for too long. You can use Double Strike, Single Strike, you can use your saber to charge your Force powers (Force Potency) you can block blaster bolts, block other sabers, you can use your saber to be more powerful in the Force - why do you need more?

They have already had to nerf the Sage because they were too powerful - giving them more melee would mean you'd have to give them better armour, doing that would make them overly powerful - they are FINE how they are.

This is an MMO - not KOTOR or KOTOR 2.

Bioware have said since the start that this is not a sandbox game - they learned the lessons that Star Wars Galaxies made when they let things get out of control and I don't see why Bioware should make the same mistakes.

MMOs require different types for different jobs - the Sage has been designated a healer or a Ranged Force DPS, they are not tanks or off tanks, they can't be, armour is too squishy.

The reason you have 4 different classes for Jedi is really simple, so you can work as team with the other classes, each of you bolstering the weakness of the others.

You have a ton of choice of saber and Force classes, you have the Shadow which I think would really suit your needs from what you have been saying -possibly even a Guardian could fulfil your love of sabers - seriously, why don't you give them a go?

Can't you just leave those of us who want to use the Force more alone and chose your saber from all the other classes that are specifically designed to use them?
There is no emotion, there is peace. There is no ignorance, there is knowledge. There is no passion, there is serenity. There is no chaos, there is harmony. There is no death, there is the Force.The good news there is Tea too!

RowanThursday's Avatar


RowanThursday
03.30.2012 , 02:06 PM | #17
The trouble is not actually with the Sage class, IMO, it's with the Shadow/Assassin. As someone rightly pointed out, there *is* a 'force powers *and* good with light sabre' combination AC, which would be perfect to play the "archetypal Jedi Master" - i.e. the "Yoda" class.

The problem is that this class then gets saddled with the World's Silliest Lightsabre...

So you *can't* play a good, all-rounder Jedi... or Sith, for that matter. Using Jedi as the example... at either *end* of the spectrum you get a 'typical' lightsabre... but you either have to be a Tanking Thug with minimal force powers, or else a Mage (I adore Project, it's awesome and hysterical) who's barely competent with her emblematic weapon.

If you want to play something 'in the middle', something that actually plays like most people imagine a Jedi to be- i.e. either a hyper-fast, hyper-agile sabre-flashing fighter, or a paladin, mingling use of the secrets of the force with deadly accuracy with a lightsabre... then you have to go for the two 'hybrid' classes, Sentinel or Shadow. ... which means you either go for having two sabres, or else for wielding the Double Ended Stick of Impractical Awkwardness...

While both of those two states look amazing *sometimes*... the flaw in the simplified combat mechanics required for a game is that you're stuck with them *all* the time. You have to draw *both* blades to fight, regardless of situation, and, more annoyingly by far, you can't help but ignite *both* ends of your sabrestaff, despite the fact that, realistically, having the second blade extended would only be of use in a small minority of defensive situations.

So... my recommendation would be to not alter the Sage at all... but to allow the Shadow to use a "proper" sabre. Thus, those who want a melee capable consular who still actually looks like a Jedi, could have one, instead of it, and the Assassin on the Sith side, being sabotaged just to evoke the 'look' of a weapon the way it was used in *one* fight, out of the appearances of a third-rate supporting villain from one film in the saga... when said villain wasn't even *of* that class (Maul fights like and is plainly a Marauder).

Really, given the fighting style and specialisations of the classes, I'd say dual-wielding would suit shadows and assassins more *anyway*... but, sensibly, the thing to do would be to give Sentinels/Marauders and Shadows/Assassins both the *choice*- for each of those advanced classes to have weapons proficiency in dual-wielding *and* double-ended sabres, to remove the "This ability can only be used whilst..." function on the abilities, and to substitute a stat variation.

Thus, for instance, if you're a Sentinel *or* a Shadow... if you choose to wield a double-ended stick, then you can use the exact same abilities, *but* you get a defence bonus. If you dual-wield, you don't get that, but your attack speed is higher.
"Next time you come to a rough choice in the dark, and think to yourself 'No one's gonna know'... imagine you've got yourself a mirror and hold it up, think like you're lookin' in the glass. That's who's gonna know."
-- Captain Melody January of the Freighter Hestia's Dawn.

Dyvim's Avatar


Dyvim
03.30.2012 , 03:05 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by RowanThursday View Post
...

So... my recommendation would be to not alter the Sage at all... but to allow the Shadow to use a "proper" sabre. Thus, those who want a melee capable consular who still actually looks like a Jedi, could have one, instead of it, and the Assassin on the Sith side, being sabotaged just to evoke the 'look' of a weapon the way it was used in *one* fight, out of the appearances of a third-rate supporting villain from one film in the saga... when said villain wasn't even *of* that class (Maul fights like and is plainly a Marauder).
Actually I'd say maul was a Sin tank.

I agree with much of what you say, but the reality is that the devs want gear variation for loot and identification purposes. Your proposal would muddy the waters between sins and maras, and thus goof that up...so I doubt they would be inclined to do that...my suggestion, which I put in the suggestion box forum, might be a middle ground you would find palatable...and is certainly more in line with the lore...

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=371204

Allow Sins and Shadows to toggle APPEARANCE of one or two blades...

There has been alot of discussion about weapon restrictions.

Basically the devs want the easy class recognition and the variance in loot. The dbl blade HILT provides that for sins and shadows...but they also restrict them in appearance to a dbl blade ignited at-all-times saber. This violates canon, as just about every dbl hilt user has used it as 1 blade at times. Maul vs Qui Gon round 1, etc.

My suggestion is to follow the movies and other examples in lore (as recently as Savage Oppress in the last few clone wars episodes) and the example in this game's VERY trailer...allow players to use the dbl hilt, but at appropriate times, only have ONE of the blades ignited, if they wish.

Let the player pick as an APPEARANCE option how many blades to ignite....one blade ignited would use the single hilt animations for running around and attacks that do not require the dblhilt/blade (e.g., saber strike, thrash)....when you activate a skill that requires the dbl blade, like Maul/Shadow Strike, then the animation would takeover, ignite the second blade on the fly, and unignite the second blade after the animation was over. Could make for much flashier and more dynamic Sin and Shadow saber combat...this requires NO changes to stats, damage, or mechanics. The dblhilt would still be just as required and recognizable as today. And of course if the player wants two blades ignited all the time, that option would exist and function just as today.

We have seen Maul fight with only one blade...we saw Satele's master dynamically shift between one and two blades in the openning Return trailer - and Malgus uses his masters dbl hilt with only a single blade as well. We have seen it over and over...and it makes sense. There are just times when using the single blade is advantageous. Follow the canon. And the best part is the dbl hilt would still be required, and would still be there to aid in easy class recognition...so the balance and design goals the devs had in mind would largely be preserved...and players would get an awesome option to customize their appearance and add a little more ooomph to their combat animations.
The Crystal is the Heart of the Blade.
The Heart is the Crystal of the Jedi.
The Jedi is the Crystal of the Force.
The Force is the Blade of the Heart.
All are Intertwined...the Crystal, the Blade, the Jedi...

RowanThursday's Avatar


RowanThursday
03.30.2012 , 03:34 PM | #19
I take your points on board, and I'd agree- if the Sassassin ( ) and Shadow could do *that*, which would make far more sense, then most of my objections to the Silly Stick would evaporate- and we'd *have* a class that was a force-user with proper lightsabre, thus answering the problem posed in this thread, without the loot problems.

On identification... personally, I think the "Let's make everyone look the same as much as possible so nobody will have a second's confusion in PvP" is a brain-suckingly annoying approach for the devs to take... but, if that's important to them, I agree, your solution would work around it without violating that better than mine would.
"Next time you come to a rough choice in the dark, and think to yourself 'No one's gonna know'... imagine you've got yourself a mirror and hold it up, think like you're lookin' in the glass. That's who's gonna know."
-- Captain Melody January of the Freighter Hestia's Dawn.

Kellan's Avatar


Kellan
03.30.2012 , 03:45 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Dyvim View Post
You are kind of describing a shadow. I seriously doubt the devs will make melee changes to sages when that variant already exists in shadows...

Sages dont get any more saber skills after lvl 1 because they are either ranged dps or ranged healing...period. But I do completely agree that the nonstop rock throwing is ridiculous.

One suggestion I like is to replace chunk a clunker (project) with a saber throw...sure knights get it in the 30s...but the only jedi to throw a saber in the movies is Yoda, clearly a consular. And what makes more sense for a jedi to throw? Magically conjured rocks (especially cute when you in a spaceship) or that lightsaber in your hand that by the way should be able to cut through about anything...seems obvious to me.

You could also get rid of chunk a clunkers damage delay and kill two birds with one animation replacement...

Darth Vader, Episode VI Return of the Jedi, disagrees with you. He threw his saber at Luke.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRY5dl_oxvo

At 1:42 in you can see it, and considering it is original trilogy it has precedence over Yoda's saber throw.

As to the actual "problem" why not just make the Balance tree a blend of melee/force (like with shadows) but have it lean more towards force powers as a Sage. This gives the option of pure range in Seer and Telekinetics, while giving a "hybrid" playstyle with the Balance tree.