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Feedback request from James Ohlen - Open World PvP

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Feedback request from James Ohlen - Open World PvP

View Poll Results: What type of Open World PvP objectives would you most like to see?
'Raw' Open World 500 22.77%
PvPvE balanced 1,021 46.49%
Faction population capped 340 15.48%
Guild based (non-faction specific) 335 15.26%
Voters: 2196. You may not vote on this poll

Thexremstar's Avatar


Thexremstar
04.07.2012 , 06:01 PM | #351
on population cap world pvp zones has worked in the past and as a reward for winning the zone you open a boss operation that is only available to the wining team of the zone, and NPC vendors provideing something useful(HARD to obtain rare weapons mods ect.)

I think Hard to obtain is the key there cant have all the players geting the pro stuff.

time based as it is now with gear is a bit predictable as the end result is everyone that plays alot is max sloted to early in the patch and either dont play much till next patch or just go on slaughtering nubs with his max sloted gear, and ending is QQ'ers on the forums whineing about how that guy is so OP and needs to be nerfed.

makeing gear abit harder to get and perhaps rateing players with the WZ's or arena 1v1 2v2 3v3 4v4 and then offering rated gear 2 or 3 lvls or gear for PVP obvioulsy each rank will be better then the last(will make patches for seasons last longer and make players work abit harder for the gear) will seperate the men from the babys.

anyways probly abit off track in the end but

Thexremstar

LillyWhiteS's Avatar


LillyWhiteS
04.07.2012 , 10:14 PM | #352
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurorai View Post
While its not quite open world PvP, what about a larger scaled warzone that lasts longer? Say you allow 16-20(more?) man teams to enter these objective based maps (like the Ilum zone) and players have to fight to take control of and hold a neutral outpost(s) or perhaps a siege scenario with turrets and so on for defense? There could be loopholes in this I haven't considered but I guess some of the advantages of this could be:
  • Capped number of players on each faction so you dont have faction-biased populations dominating these
  • Using various environment elements eg one player can carry a rocket or something to that effect to break a wall , carving the way for a team of attackers to flank a defending team holding an outpost with turrets, etc.
  • By having players earn points for the objectives such as defending key locations, it would promote strategies for dividing up the teams, communication and so on
  • Could be used for creating new content like planets dedicated to this, or reworking existing world regions (I believe Ilums PvP zone is being phased out to go back to the drawing board?)

It's probably not relevant, but I thought I'd throw the thought out there

If not, I'm all for PvPvE as there are times when there just isn't enough online or faction imbalances make it difficult.
Having a Warzone like an Alterac Valley would be very good way to tie people over until hopefully forts/siege type stuff was brought in, for those that like the bigger scale stuff.

It's why I wasn't particularly happy with yet another 8 v 8 WZ in 1.2 as far as variety goes and hasn't got me nearly as excited as I would have been, needed something at least a full ops, bigger map and different objective type
Need a Variety of Warzone size/participants/objectives, something like an Alterac Valley.

Warhammer may have messed it up, but the idea of forts and the reward was sound, fix Ilum.

JeramieCrowe's Avatar


JeramieCrowe
04.07.2012 , 10:25 PM | #353
Quote: Originally Posted by LillyWhiteS View Post
Having a Warzone like an Alterac Valley would be very good way to tie people over until hopefully forts/siege type stuff was brought in.

It's why I wasn't particularly happy with yet another 8 v 8 in 1.2 as far as variety goes and hasn't got me that excited, needed something at least a full ops, bigger map and different objective type
There are so many people hating on Alterac Valley it's not even funny. In fact, I have yet to see any suggestion of "this game did it this way" that a mass of PvPers didn't hate on.

How can we find something we all like when there are so many haters among us?
Allix Crowe - Vanguard Trooper -/- Ethavan Crowe - Smuggler Gunslinger -/- Malrath Crowe - Powertech Bounty Hunter -/- Boslo - Jedi Knight Sentinel -/- Jiao-gen Pall - Jedi Knight Guardian -/- Landen Tanarr - Jedi Consular Sage -/- Vaelyth Kinti-kaar- Sith Warrior Juggernaut -/- Oteln'erose'thu - Imperial Agent Sniper -/- Zandur Tuum - Cathar Knight

LillyWhiteS's Avatar


LillyWhiteS
04.07.2012 , 10:42 PM | #354
Quote: Originally Posted by JeramieCrowe View Post
There are so many people hating on Alterac Valley it's not even funny. In fact, I have yet to see any suggestion of "this game did it this way" that a mass of PvPers didn't hate on.

How can we find something we all like when there are so many haters among us?
That's the trouble with PvP, what it means to one person, is totally the opposite of what it means to another.

Take Alterac Valley, it's one of the few things I miss from WoW lol, a big 40 v 40 Warzone type PvP and had different aspects compared to all the others I have played, was different.

I like big scale stuff, don't care about who is the best player or group, that has no real consequence unlike losing forts and having your city raided etc

Like I mentioned in a previous post on page 31, Warhammer could have been so great, they had the ideas right with forts and city raid etc, but they didn't go far enough and had other problems.
Need a Variety of Warzone size/participants/objectives, something like an Alterac Valley.

Warhammer may have messed it up, but the idea of forts and the reward was sound, fix Ilum.

JeramieCrowe's Avatar


JeramieCrowe
04.07.2012 , 10:48 PM | #355
Quote: Originally Posted by LillyWhiteS View Post
That's the trouble with PvP, what it means to one person, is totally the opposite of what it means to another.

Take Alterac Valley, it's one of the few things I miss from WoW lol, a big 40 v 40 Warzone type PvP and had different aspects compared to all the others I have played, was different.
It's self-defeatist. It means that no matter what a developer does, PvPers enmasse will think it failed. BioWare can't win for losing.

Look at the poll. Almost 45% for PvPvE. Yet, if you go through this thread, much more that 45% are railing AGAINST PvPvE.

What the hell?! Y'know?
Allix Crowe - Vanguard Trooper -/- Ethavan Crowe - Smuggler Gunslinger -/- Malrath Crowe - Powertech Bounty Hunter -/- Boslo - Jedi Knight Sentinel -/- Jiao-gen Pall - Jedi Knight Guardian -/- Landen Tanarr - Jedi Consular Sage -/- Vaelyth Kinti-kaar- Sith Warrior Juggernaut -/- Oteln'erose'thu - Imperial Agent Sniper -/- Zandur Tuum - Cathar Knight

LillyWhiteS's Avatar


LillyWhiteS
04.07.2012 , 11:03 PM | #356
Quote: Originally Posted by JeramieCrowe View Post
It's self-defeatist. It means that no matter what a developer does, PvPers enmasse will think it failed. BioWare can't win for losing.

Look at the poll. Almost 45% for PvPvE. Yet, if you go through this thread, much more that 45% are railing AGAINST PvPvE.

What the hell?! Y'know?
The sad thing is, for all the complaints Warhammer had for example, the grass isn't always greener, I bet a decent % of the players that played that game and now TOR, would gladly take Wars PvP over what we have in TOR now, myself very much included and a few friends who also played both and left TOR already.

Tiered PvP, forts etc, no level 10 against a level 49 etc, the list goes on

PS : I did vote for PvPvE myself, didn't want to vote for Guild based, worried what it would do to smaller guilds and solo players, also was in War so I know what it's like and it could be used along with buffs to help pop balance issues etc

I like meaningful PvP with real consequences, not losing items you wear, not personal stuff but faction stuff, like having a city raided by the other side if you lose
Need a Variety of Warzone size/participants/objectives, something like an Alterac Valley.

Warhammer may have messed it up, but the idea of forts and the reward was sound, fix Ilum.

JeramieCrowe's Avatar


JeramieCrowe
04.07.2012 , 11:57 PM | #357
Quote: Originally Posted by LillyWhiteS View Post
The sad thing is, for all the complaints Warhammer had for example, the grass isn't always greener, I bet a decent % of the players that played that game and now TOR, would gladly take Wars PvP over what we have in TOR now, myself very much included and a few friends who also played both and left TOR already.

Tiered PvP, forts etc, no level 10 against a level 49 etc, the list goes on

PS : I did vote for PvPvE myself, didn't want to vote for Guild based, worried what it would do to smaller guilds and solo players, also was in War so I know what it's like and it could be used along with buffs to help pop balance issues etc

I like meaningful PvP with real consequences, not losing items you wear, not personal stuff but faction stuff, like having a city raided by the other side if you lose
Can you imagine, though, if TOR led out with a fully Warhammer-type of PvP? The outcry and QQ against that would be enormous. There would be no difference here on the forums.

What if they led out with a DAoC-type PvP? Judging by this very thread of how many posters deride DAoC PvP, again, the outcry and QQ against would be enormous. Again, no difference here on the forums.

Thus, BioWare cannot, nor any MMO developer, do it right. Ever. Because PvPers can't even agree on what they want among themselves!

It's a true Lose/Lose situation... Catch-22.
Allix Crowe - Vanguard Trooper -/- Ethavan Crowe - Smuggler Gunslinger -/- Malrath Crowe - Powertech Bounty Hunter -/- Boslo - Jedi Knight Sentinel -/- Jiao-gen Pall - Jedi Knight Guardian -/- Landen Tanarr - Jedi Consular Sage -/- Vaelyth Kinti-kaar- Sith Warrior Juggernaut -/- Oteln'erose'thu - Imperial Agent Sniper -/- Zandur Tuum - Cathar Knight

Jalez's Avatar


Jalez
04.08.2012 , 09:13 AM | #358
Quote: Originally Posted by JeramieCrowe View Post
Can you imagine, though, if TOR led out with a fully Warhammer-type of PvP? The outcry and QQ against that would be enormous. There would be no difference here on the forums.

What if they led out with a DAoC-type PvP? Judging by this very thread of how many posters deride DAoC PvP, again, the outcry and QQ against would be enormous. Again, no difference here on the forums.

Thus, BioWare cannot, nor any MMO developer, do it right. Ever. Because PvPers can't even agree on what they want among themselves!

It's a true Lose/Lose situation... Catch-22.
I havent noticed anyone in this thread "Deriding" DAoC RvR/PvP

The only people that I ever saw bad mouthing DAoC was for Trials of Atlantis PvE in DAoC. I honestly cant remember anyone saying they didnt like DAoC's RvR/PvP that had actually PLAYED the game.

If another MMO ever gets their PvP to be as half as good as DAoC's, they will have a huge hit on their hands imo
Jalez- Jedi Sage -Canderous Ordo
Soze- RR 12 Eldritch DAOC
PvP'ing in MMO's since 2002

Saxxonknight's Avatar


Saxxonknight
04.08.2012 , 05:48 PM | #359
World PVP can be one of the greatest long term game assets. One of the best PVP games I've plaed was Dark Age of Camelot (first 3 years, then played WOW do can't vouch for later changes), which was based around RVR World PVP. However, SWTOR being a close WOW simulacrum in design, would need to be tweaked to really reap benefits from world PVP. DAOC at the time I played, you could tweak your gear any way you wished, and PVP/PVE gear was roughly the same unless you geared for a specific fight. DAOC's end game was PVP, not gear farming.

I played WOW for 6 years. Most players I know from the game agree that the best world PVP in the game was in its early year or two - before resilience PVP gear was really in existence, the only PVP gear was just like raid gear but Stam weighted. 5 players couldn't invade a city and take on 30 players and guards with impunity, you needed at least some numerical parity. In addition with the BGs & arenas people did their PVP there, and only went to world PVP to grief other players who didn't have the PVP gear but might be high hour players in raiding guilds with top end gear. Those players generally are not appreciative of their wasted effort if forced into PVP encounters with people that have gear that nullifies theirs.

This factors into having a balanced experience where you have a roughly equal chance at killing your opponent assuming equal skill because the gear only makes a minimal difference. Later one and like in SWTOR, PVP stats skew the game toward people that farm PVP and don't play any of the other content, thus your part time or mostly PVE players are forced to shun PVP because they are ineffective against fully PVP geared players - and then your World PVP sucks because either you die all the time, or you can't find opponenets because no one wants to come out & play.

The other part of balance is factions. SWTOR is currently on fast track to the poor state of WOW where servers are lopsided by high ratios. Mine was 5 to 1 when I left WOW, it had ceased to be any fun at all when any fight you got into in the world was at long odds. There are ways to balance server/factions, but you have to get the structure in place to allow migration of players to achieve that. Then implement a system of rewards and penalties for pop ratios - and you'll have a dynamically balanced game.

JeramieCrowe's Avatar


JeramieCrowe
04.08.2012 , 07:53 PM | #360
Quote: Originally Posted by Jalez View Post
I havent noticed anyone in this thread "Deriding" DAoC RvR/PvP

The only people that I ever saw bad mouthing DAoC was for Trials of Atlantis PvE in DAoC. I honestly cant remember anyone saying they didnt like DAoC's RvR/PvP that had actually PLAYED the game.

If another MMO ever gets their PvP to be as half as good as DAoC's, they will have a huge hit on their hands imo
I just did a cursory page-by-page, searching only for the term "daoc". Here's what I found:

Quote: Originally Posted by Shin_chan View Post
PVP factions is an old style pvp no longer works.
Quote: Originally Posted by TheTitan_KoS View Post
As one if the poster's above mentioned the only way to make it more fair considering the faction balance is to make it guild based, and completely ignore the faction stuff.
Quote: Originally Posted by RolyartNala View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by StephenReid View Post
PvPvE balanced - bolstering the underdog faction through NPCs, turrets, etc. Factions claim objectives.
Having experienced this in several MMOs, it rarely feels authentic when you win because of NPC bolstering.
Quote: Originally Posted by Edgecase View Post
PvPvE but for the love of god think DOTA and NOT DAOC.
Quote: Originally Posted by goatfoam View Post
As soon as you introduce factions you introduce imbalance, which is a major problem and has been for years. You can get some semblance of order by introducing a third faction but that's obviously a tonne of work and doesn't always help (my DAoC server had nobody RvRing on Midgard and only a few on Albion).
Quote: Originally Posted by DarkDruidSS View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Chaos_Distortion View Post
The only game that ever balanced factions correctly was DAOC because it could be controlled by the players.
No, it didn't work because it was GvG it worked in DAoC because you had 3 factions. It still wasn't trully GvG because you still had a faction behind you. In true GvG it's a free for all and everyone outside your guild is an enemy. Thus leading to mega guilds owning everything.
Quote: Originally Posted by Pekish View Post
DAOC pvp was because of DAOC players a system like DAOC nowday would be impossible people is to focused on reward rather then just PVP...
Which I wholeheartedly agree with...

Quote: Originally Posted by lordofdamornin View Post
Every passionate PvP'er has grand, rose-colored memories of when they played DAoC
Now, if you actually go page by page and look at all the hate posts about faction vs. faction... well, it ain't pretty.

To say the least...

I'll say it again, and I'll keep saying it because it's true: PvPers, as whole, have no clue what the hell they really want. And those are just in this thread alone! This thread is even worse.

And I hope my point, by now, after dozens of pages, is clear: It's not the MMO developers failing (not just BioWare), it's the PvPers.
Allix Crowe - Vanguard Trooper -/- Ethavan Crowe - Smuggler Gunslinger -/- Malrath Crowe - Powertech Bounty Hunter -/- Boslo - Jedi Knight Sentinel -/- Jiao-gen Pall - Jedi Knight Guardian -/- Landen Tanarr - Jedi Consular Sage -/- Vaelyth Kinti-kaar- Sith Warrior Juggernaut -/- Oteln'erose'thu - Imperial Agent Sniper -/- Zandur Tuum - Cathar Knight