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Feedback request from James Ohlen - Open World PvP

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Feedback request from James Ohlen - Open World PvP

View Poll Results: What type of Open World PvP objectives would you most like to see?
'Raw' Open World 500 22.77%
PvPvE balanced 1,021 46.49%
Faction population capped 340 15.48%
Guild based (non-faction specific) 335 15.26%
Voters: 2196. You may not vote on this poll

Mailek's Avatar


Mailek
03.29.2012 , 09:03 AM | #141
I'm going to go with the PvPvE version just because the Republic are already outnumbered pretty much on all servers.

I know the devs from WAR redesigned their RvR system to have a handicap feature in place. Hopefullly something similiar to that.

Guilds should also be able to buy and place 1 factional base either in certain areas on planets or a "front line" instance where other guilds plant bases and battle for domination.

Xxxxxxxxxxxxxx's Avatar


Xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
03.29.2012 , 09:16 AM | #142
I've been wanting to make a post like this for a while, seems like a good time now.

PvP can't have "objectives" that are like PvE objectives, at all. If they are, PvE players will simply "complete the quest". That's what PvE players DO. They are good at COMPLETING QUESTS. You only need look at the original version of Ilum to see what happened. Each player says "how do i complete this quest in the lowest amount of time possible", and the answer is/was obvious.

Bolstering the underdog doesn't work. There will always be some type of min/maxing going on, or the mechanic itself will just not be balanced. You only need look at Tenacity, which caused problems like shadowpriests throwing 2 dots on each player to kill everyone they saw, and druid tanks with 400k hitpoints and 40% damage mitigation.

The thing about Open World PvP is that most players join in for the sake of the pvp. No rewards are required. Heck, everyone who joins a PvP server, probably does so because they like the excitement of being attacked anytime, anywhere. I mean, if you read the server select screen it does NOT say "PvP server - you will earn extra rewards here for participating in PvP", does it? Yet people still join. True, open-world pvp cannot have rewards, or you get people win-trading or kill-trading or valor-trading or whatever.

Now, if you are trying to get players to participate in an open-world PvP SIMULATION, and reward them for it, that is a different story. That can work. Some finer points:

--You have to make the sides 'even' , or one side will stop participating.
--The losers should experience some reward for participating in the simulation.
--The winner should receive more rewards than the losers.
--There should be a server-wide "advantage" for the winning side.
--Simulations cannot be running 24 hours continuously, it just boils down to faction population at that point
--Players should be allowed to play at the same time as their friends

additionally , for SWTOR, I would add:

--Objectives should be spread out significantly, to prevent 100 players from being in a 50mx50m area, and "lagging out"
--Background graphics like planetary blaster fire should be kept to a minimum
--the Zone should be completely dedicated to PvP, no mixing in PvE general chat, no extra server stress from PvE players present in the zone, etc
--respawn areas and taxi paths should be prohibited areas for the opposing faction.

Imagine Ilum, every 3 hours a game spawns, where up to 24 empire and up to 24 republic were pitted against each other. For 30 minutes, they fought over objectives, killed each other, emotes flying, etc etc. After the game finished, the winning side gains a benefit of 5% extra damage in Belsavis and Ilum (for doing dailies), and +5% valor in warzone matches.

Groncho's Avatar


Groncho
03.29.2012 , 09:18 AM | #143
Quote: Originally Posted by Mailek View Post
I'm going to go with the PvPvE version just because the Republic are already outnumbered pretty much on all servers.

I know the devs from WAR redesigned their RvR system to have a handicap feature in place. Hopefullly something similiar to that.

Guilds should also be able to buy and place 1 factional base either in certain areas on planets or a "front line" instance where other guilds plant bases and battle for domination.
that worked on a sandbox
i cant see how u can find a place to put a base in this type of game
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Monkeylint's Avatar


Monkeylint
03.29.2012 , 09:23 AM | #144
I voted for the balanced PvPvE option since there has always been a significant Imp>Pub population showing up on Ilum on our server (before the WZ credits for the Ilum dailies and the big 20+ on either side fights we had all dried up). You'd have to have some incentive for the outnumbered side to show up, so they know they'd still be able to accomplish something if there's only like 3 other friendlies in the zone. I'd love to see:

-Massive PvP objectives match that starts every X hours with balanced faction numbers on either side like WoW's Tol Barad

-Large open world PvP zone with NPC-guarded objectives that would require at least a full ops group to flip and solo-able side quests to keep people occupied when their faction has low pop. Control expires with time so that low pop faction isn't always facing all points in enemy hands. Since flipping requires a large group, low pop side can leverage defense with friendly NPC guards to have an effect on a larger number of attackers, playing the spoiler position and tipping the balance so attackers will need still larger numbers to pull off the cap. Player kill quests, objective defense/capture quests, objective NPC kill quests, gather quests... See LotRO Ettenmoors.

-And a little off topic, but how about a Payload-style WZ?? That would be fun.
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ozgup's Avatar


ozgup
03.29.2012 , 09:27 AM | #145
SWTOR maps are huge and i can't see any enemy on my map. I am lvl 32 Sith @Trayus Academy EU

Chaos_Distortion's Avatar


Chaos_Distortion
03.29.2012 , 09:46 AM | #146
PvPvE won't work, I assume the vast majority of the people voting for PvPvE never played AION. That is a shining example of how PvPvE doesn't work in MMOs. I liked AION but I recognized the PvPvE factor put in to supposedly balance the factions, didn't work at all..
Empathetic (Chaos Legacy): 50 Scoundrel (Sawbones) Healer, Empathetic: 50 Sage (Seer) Healer on Helm of Graush and various other Alts.
Been playing pvp Support/Healing in nearly every MMO since 1997 UO.

Shlamorel's Avatar


Shlamorel
03.29.2012 , 09:46 AM | #147
Quote: Originally Posted by Groncho View Post
that worked on a sandbox
i cant see how u can find a place to put a base in this type of game
Well, the Dev who started the thread was asking for feedback. Future/existing content could always be created/modified to have sandbox elements
Shlamorel Sta'raeth - Jedi Seer
Dragonbrand
------------
I vow to try and respond in a constructive and positive manner

DarkDruidSS's Avatar


DarkDruidSS
03.29.2012 , 09:56 AM | #148
Quote: Originally Posted by Chaos_Distortion View Post
PvPvE won't work, I assume the vast majority of the people voting for PvPvE never played AION. That is a shining of how PvPvE doesn't work in MMOs. I liked AION but I recognized the PvPvE factor put in to supposedly balance the factions, didn't work at all..
You know why it didn't work in Aion. Besides the fact that it DID work overseas in Korea,China and Japan that were all playing the game a year to 6 months prior to NA/EU release. It didn't work because in NA/EU servers were crap and you had a slide show any time there was a keep seige. Tied to that the fact that people wanted the Baluar to own objectives because they gave considerable rewards for killing them and you have a failure waiting to happen. The rewards for killing Balaur was a change made prior to NA/EU release so that people could complete the PvE set and so people could get pvp gear.

Any time you tie rewards for killing NPCs in PvPvE you have a problem. NPCs should be there strictly for balance purposes and not for a method of farming reknown so you can buy gear, get drops (bloods in Aion), grind exp or grind cash.

It also DID work in Warhammer until they changed the castles to drop loot boxes with PvP gear in them. Then people started trading castles for the boxes so people could gear up. Once again, tying rewards to killing PvPvE NPCS is the problem.
Beatrush - 50 Assassin | Satellitebeam - 50 Sniper
Katastrophe - 41 Powertech | Ømnislash - 34 Marauder
Highwind - 29 Commando | ßraver - 23 Sentinel
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Luno's Avatar


Luno
03.29.2012 , 10:00 AM | #149
Whatever design approach is taken, there are some elements which I'd like to see:

- Strategic Elements: There should be some amount of overall strategy that can be employed so that a smaller coordinated force can do well against a larger uncoordinated force.

- Tactical Elements: Objectives should be planned with multiple attack/defense points so that stacking everyone in one place is not always the best way to take/defend an objective.

- Dynamic Elements: The battle field should change over time such that the players will need to respond to the changes with Strategic and Tactical elements.

wavyhill's Avatar


wavyhill
03.29.2012 , 10:13 AM | #150
I really want to believe that SWTOR can have fun, meaningful, well populated Open World PvP, but I my experience in Warhammer has taught me that without a 3rd faction that plan is doomed to failure.

Now, obviously, Bioware can't really make a 3rd fully fleshed out faction. But they can create a pseudo 3rd faction fairly easily. A faction that accepts both Republic and Imperial players and only exists for the purposes of Open World PvP.

Probably the best way to implement this is to just have an NPC on the fleet that reports on approximately how many people for each side are actively participating in Open Wolrd PvP at that point in time and allows players to toggle between their normal faction alliance and this 3rd faction, again, only for the purposes of Open World PvP.

This would allow people on servers that are totally dominated by either Empire or Republic players the chance to get some action beyond spawn camping and zerging their horribly undermanned opposites. The sort of stuff that was the eventual downfall and ruination of Warhammer Online.

Quote: Originally Posted by Xxxxxxxxxxxxxx View Post
The thing about Open World PvP is that most players join in for the sake of the pvp. No rewards are required.
Really? You think people will do things just for the sake of fun? In an MMO? Your faith in your fellow man is touching, if unrealistic. Misanthropy wins the day when it comes to MMO design.