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Same gender relationships clarifications?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Same gender relationships clarifications?

elexier's Avatar


elexier
01.17.2012 , 10:16 AM | #1
And I do not mean the same copy paste message that gets thrown onto every topic that discusses this, I mean no offense to the admins but a bit of clarification would be nice.

Things to clarify:

1 - A rough eta on same sex relationships (flirting ect) Were not after a nailed down etched in stone, be all end all date, Just a rough idea. A week/Month maybe 3 ect ?

2 - Those that happen to pick the "wrong" gender at creation are currently missing out with regards to there story arc, In my example Female sentinel missing out with Kira. There are 2 ways I see to fix this.

2a - Re-write those sections to include the same options for both genders and allow players already past to "Redo" there conversations. (Bit difficult and a lot of reworking)

2b - Create equivalent content for same gender romance at level 50 (or once the CURRENT story arc is finished) So by the end of it EVERYONE has had the same options REGARDLESS of the gender they chose.

3 - This is more of a given I think, but will there be more customization options for your companions. For example something to just change your companions hair color or skin tone. (I say its a given because its something so obvious that can be expanded upon and require very little work)

These are the questions to the Developers.

My question to the forum baring in mind we already know more companions are coming with these options enabled already.

Witch do you prefer option 2a or option 2b ?

Ps - Due to threads being closed due to flame wars ect, please keep it civil and just ignore/report those that attempt to start one, And please stay on topic. I will update a count of witch is preferred every 2 days or so. (WTB poll option)

elexier's Avatar


elexier
01.17.2012 , 10:20 AM | #2
------Reserved for poll results

Witch is preferred option 2a or 2b in the above post.

I THINK ITS A LANDSLIDE VICTORY

Option 2a - 24

Option 2b - 7

Option 3 - 1
It has come to my attention that there appears to be a THIRD option so I am Including it here rather than the main post.

OPTION 3 (Its all becomes clear please read)


FIRST - At the character creation screen, just after you select your gender you get to pick your ROMANCE PREFERENCE.

Straight - Male > Female or Male > Female, romance options (You can ONLY romance the opposite sex)

Bi - Male > Male, Female > Female, Male > Female, Female > Male, (You can romance ANYONE that is romancable)

Homosexual/Lesbian - Male > Male, Female > Female. (Only those of the same sex)

Asexual (I think thats the right word) - No Romance options ever appear.


SECONDLY - Make EVERY single romancable companion BISEXUAL, This is crucial for this to work and you will see why in a moment.

THIRDLY - When the romance options normally appear the game does a quick check to see the characters preference and acts accordingly.

FORTH and FINAL - Reset EVERY ONES companion quests to the beginning, Not only would this put EVERYONE on the same page, But also allow those that wish to to record (using fraps or whatever) there own little companion story if they wish.


Unless I am very much mistaken Very little or even No dialog actually need to change, (Unless there is specific gender references any of the conversations. (ie one calling the other boy/guy or girl/woman. And even if there is it would take all of what 2 min to record an appropriate line.


This allows....

Those that do not wish to "See" the options able to toggle them off at creation, Or heck they can get rid of the romances altogether if they so desire.

------------Witch ones---------------

It has come to my attention that there are some people that belive only certain ones should be Bi/gay so simple question witch ones. (Ill try to keep up with you lot :P)

Kira Carsen
Doc
Zenith
LT Iresso
Theran Cedrex
Nadia Grell
Andronikus Revel
Ashara Zavros
Vette
Jaesa Willsaam
Malavi Quinn
LT Pierce
Aric Jorgan
Elara Dorne
Corso Riggs
Risha
Alcavi Spaar
Mako
Torian Caldera
Kaliyo Djannis
Vector Hyllis
Ensign Raia Temple

Take from http://www.hotrodacc.com/swtor/comp.html, If I missed one let me know.

Vote away.

Paralassa's Avatar


Paralassa
03.22.2012 , 07:39 PM | #3
Hi there!

Because the previous thread has exceeded our normal threshold for thread length, we've started this new thread for the community to discuss the how and when of implementation of same-gender romances in the Star Wars™: The Old Republic™.

Please keep your discussions related to the game. Discussions regarding real-life politics, morality and religion do not belong in this thread or anywhere else on the forums. We ask that all replies be on-topic, constructive and respectful, or else they will be removed.

Our official statement:

Quote: Originally Posted by StephenReid
Due to the design constraints of a fully voiced MMO of this scale and size, many choices had to be made as to the launch and post-launch feature set. Same gender romances with companion characters in Star Wars: The Old Republic will be a post-launch feature. Because The Old Republic is an MMO, the game will live on through content expansions which allow us to include content and features that could not be included at launch, including the addition of more companion characters who will have additional romance options.
As a gentle reminder: Discussion of the implementation of toggles to filter same gender romance options is considered discriminatory language and is neither appropriate nor allowed on the forums. Posts along this vein of discussion will be removed. This thread is for the discussion of the how and when of implementation of same gender romances. Please stay constructive, on topic, and be kind to your fellow forum members. If you see someone who is breaking the forum rules, do not respond; please flag their post and the Community Team will investigate. Flag, don't fight!

As always, we ask that the community keep the following things in mind when responding:
  • Stay on Target - Please keep discussion on topic.
  • Insults - Please do not resort to or use them in any way in your posts. Posts should be productive, not destructive.
  • Disruptive - Please do not post messages that are purposefully designed to provoke, antagonize, or otherwise elicit a negative emotional response.
  • Agree to Disagree - Be respectful of others' viewpoints even if they are opposite of your own. Discuss disagreements constructively.
  • Flag, Don't Fight - Utilize the Flag Post feature to report possible rules violations, rather than responding to or fighting them.

For anyone who wishes to discuss [Flirt] options, please do know that we also have a thread for that discussion in the Suggestion Box.

Thank you and enjoy the discussion!

Sacrmeno's Avatar


Sacrmeno
03.22.2012 , 07:48 PM | #4
:d 101!!!
Tharbine Valros, Mandolore's Chosen--Darth Xodrai Valros-- Captain Carturio Valros-

Feline_Jaye's Avatar


Feline_Jaye
03.22.2012 , 07:53 PM | #5
Please please can we get a rough (even very rough) estimate on when to expect any same gender content?

I've got a main and an alt I can't play until same gender content is introduced so I'd love a (no matter how rough) estimate of when I'll be able to start playing my characters.



My vote is down for romance arcs and same-gender flirts being written in from level 1.
.: Decide Your Fate :. [An All Class Morality Quiz] Currently on hiatus.
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Inquisitor --> Bounty Hunter --> Smuggler --> Imperial Agent --> Consular --> Trooper --> Warrior --> Knight

Captain_Zone's Avatar


Captain_Zone
03.22.2012 , 08:26 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Feline_Jaye View Post
Please please can we get a rough (even very rough) estimate on when to expect any same gender content?

I've got a main and an alt I can't play until same gender content is introduced so I'd love a (no matter how rough) estimate of when I'll be able to start playing my characters.



My vote is down for romance arcs and same-gender flirts being written in from level 1.
What Jaye said. ^ Started a female BH and a female Trooper. BOTH are staying at level 1 until it comes out. lol
. OPOD
Shivalka: Darth Baras is quite large, isn't he?
Joran Karn: You, my dear Sith, have just mastered the art of understatement.

Kioma's Avatar


Kioma
03.22.2012 , 08:41 PM | #7
They gave a very rough estimate at the summit: same gender relationship options will be put in this year along with 'other story content'. No better estimate than some time this year, unfortunately.
::Please Stand By, Signature Assessment Probe Commencing Analysis::

Suaine's Avatar


Suaine
03.23.2012 , 03:52 AM | #8
For easy reference, I'm going to post the few official quotes we have on the subject.

In September 2011, Stephen Reid made the following statements and clarifications:

Quote: Originally Posted by Stephen Reid
Due to the design constraints of a fully voiced MMO of this scale and size, many choices had to be made as to the launch and post-launch feature set. Same gender romances with companion characters in Star Wars: The Old Republic will be a post-launch feature. Because The Old Republic is an MMO, the game will live on through content expansions which allow us to include content and features that could not be included at launch, including the addition of more companion characters who will have additional romance options.
Quote: Originally Posted by Stephen Reid
First of all, this is definitely not an audience that consists of a 'couple of people' and we're aware of that. We take this decision very seriously.

Second, it's very important to realize that this is just one of many, many content additions that will be going into the game post launch. The vast majority of our content will be of interest to the vast majority of our potential audience.

However, one of the amazing things about MMOs is that over time we can get to add things that are exciting and interesting to smaller audiences. Normally, that's not something that's addressed too far ahead of time. In this case, we felt the addition was warranted and should be addressed early.

There will be plenty of content for all to play and enjoy.
Quote: Originally Posted by Stephen Reid
We can't guarantee that a character you play at launch would have romance options 'unlocked' for an existing companion. It's something that will be taken into consideration when making design decisions. Not a promise it'll happen, but we'll take that feedback and relay it through to design.

We fully intend to do justice to the story in our storylines.

As you may have heard, we take story very seriously - this included.

Lastly for those of you who seem concerned that you will be 'tricked' into any romance arc in the game - all romance choices are clearly marked. You will be aware you're making those choices as you make them.
In the time between that and the Guild Summit, the only communication on the subject came from Customer Support to individual inquiries.

At the Guild Summit, Daniel Erickson elaborated on the inclusion of SGRAs, with the most important new information being that this content will come during the year 2012.

This following quote is merely a summary of what Daniel said. The full transcript will be available once the videos of the Guild Summit are available online.

Quote:
Q: Any update on same gender romance?
Daniel Erickson: It is coming and it is coming with story updates. It is something that depends on the writers and we want to do right, and writers have a long lead time. We did not want to just change all the dialogue for the other gender. That is not writing, that is not story telling. This was cut originally because of budget and time issues. We have designs, we know what romance options we want to put in for this. It is coming when full story comes, and full story is coming this year. We are still on track.
We have to create the future, or others will do it for us. We have to care for one another, because if we don't, who will?
~ Susan Ivanova, Anla-shok Na, space bisexual

natashina's Avatar


natashina
03.23.2012 , 05:49 AM | #9
Welcome to the Same-Gender Romance Arc (SGRA) Clarification Request thread!


First off, I'd like to thank the following posters for the continued input: Jenovan (who gave me permission to use her document and is responsible for much of the final product), MusedMoose, Lurkz, sparklecat, Zandilar, Captain_Zone, Suaine, JediElf, Kioma and many many others. I'd also like to thank anyone that comes in and gives their support. If I didn't mention a name, I assure everyone wasn't a slight against them. Without the support and contributions by all the posters, neither this thread nor this FAQ would exist. Please feel free to quote and link this at your leisure, just give credit where credit is due.

This thread’s main purpose is as a place to discuss implementation of SGRAs in SWTOR. While Bioware has committed to providing this content within 2012, the community still has many questions regarding how it will be done, and plenty of thoughts on possible solutions.



1) Why do you have the quote from the moderators on page 1?(aka the T-word)


The thread is not a place for the discussion of whether SGRAs should be added to the game (again, Bioware has already committed to them), or of a SGRA “toggle” or other method of turning off this content. The OP poll is outdated and no longer relevant to this thread. On March 13, the following statement was released by the mods:

Quote: Originally Posted by Moitteva
Discussion of the implementation of toggles to filter same gender romance options is considered discriminatory language and is neither appropriate nor allowed on the forums. Posts along this vein of discussion will be removed.
The forum rules regarding these sorts of toggles came about after several months of discussion. Over time, the general consensus was that it wasn't needed, and it was agreed upon that it was discriminatory. The best filter a player can have is their own judgement. If a player doesn't wish to return a [Flirt], they can always pick a different option.

The following quote is by David Gaider, one of the lead writers of Bioware, and he worked on the Dragon Age series. He also wrote HK-47, Jolee Bindo and Carth Onasi for Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic.


Quote: Originally Posted by David Gaider
The "rights" of anyone with regards to a game are murky at best, but anyone who takes that stance must apply it equally to both the minority as well as the majority. The majority has no inherent "right" to get more options than anyone else.


2) Why are you concerned with this when the game needs work elsewhere?


There are multiple teams working on different aspects of the game at any given time. There would be one team for PvP, one for Ops/Hard Modes, one for story, one for game fixes, ect. This will not divide resources from other teams. And most of us do not demand this right now. The one thing we all have in common is our love of this game and we all want to see it as polished as possible. The SGR thread is for this particular aspect of the game.

While we should make no assumptions about why any player wants any feature -- everyone has the freedom to play for whatever reason they like -- here are several commonly cited reasons for which people request this content:

  • *Fairness -- there is already a great deal of heterosexual romance content in the game, and it would be fair to offer the same opportunities for gay or bisexual characters.
  • *LGBT players would like the chance to play their in-game characters as “themselves.”
  • *Players of all stripes who enjoy roleplaying and storycraft would like to play different kinds of characters.
  • *Players who play characters opposite of their own gender would like to be able to flirt/romance NPCs also opposite their own gender.
  • *Some NPCs currently exhibit behavior that seems very much like same-gender flirting, but in the game as it is now, these leads go nowhere, disappointing players who thought they’d stumbled onto a romance.


3) Why did you buy a game knowing it didn't have your preferred choice of relationships?



Many players fully expected SGRAs to be a part of this game before launch, because of Bioware’s track record of offering such content before. Bioware stands firmly behind their choices to include this content, and in this interview from February 28th with Drs. Muzyka and Zeschuk (co-founders of Bioware) about SGRAs in Mass Effect 3 explains why.

Quote:
(Muzyka) "It's the player's choice. It's a role-playing game."

"Yeah," Zeschuck followed, "It's a choice based on preferences."

"We let players take on a role and really immerse themselves on how they feel they want to be playing the game," said Muzyka. "Be true to that. Be true to your ideal of a game of choice."
Quote:
"We are doing it as a service to our fans, because we think it's part of the expectation of a role-playing game," Muzyka said. "It's part of the expectation of a BioWare game because of the way our games have been for the last couple decades. We've had that kind of choice going way back to Baldur's Gate back in the 90's. It's been refined. We think it's a good thing to offer players. Choice is always a nice thing, when it works. When it's high-quality."

4) Has Bioware/EA changed their minds about including SGRs?



The short answer is no. As far as EA goes, The Sims have had SGR content since the first game, and it continues to do so to this day. When it comes to SGRs in The Old Republic, we do know that they’re coming, and that some thought is being put into doing them well.

The following statements were made in September 2011 by Stephen Reid, the Senior Online Community Manager for SWTOR.


Quote: Originally Posted by Stephen Reid
Due to the design constraints of a fully voiced MMO of this scale and size, many choices had to be made as to the launch and post-launch feature set. Same gender romances with companion characters in Star Wars: The Old Republic will be a post-launch feature. Because The Old Republic is an MMO, the game will live on through content expansions which allow us to include content and features that could not be included at launch, including the addition of more companion characters who will have additional romance options.
Quote: Originally Posted by Stephen Reid
First of all, this is definitely not an audience that consists of a 'couple of people' and we're aware of that. We take this decision very seriously. Second, it's very important to realize that this is just one of many, many content additions that will be going into the game post launch. The vast majority of our content will be of interest to the vast majority of our potential audience.
However, one of the amazing things about MMOs is that over time we can get to add things that are exciting and interesting to smaller audiences. Normally, that's not something that's addressed too far ahead of time. In this case, we felt the addition was warranted and should be addressed early. There will be plenty of content for all to play and enjoy.
Quote: Originally Posted by Stephen Reid
We can't guarantee that a character you play at launch would have romance options 'unlocked' for an existing companion. It's something that will be taken into consideration when making design decisions. Not a promise it'll happen, but we'll take that feedback and relay it through to design. We fully intend to do justice to the story in our storylines. As you may have heard, we take story very seriously - this included.
Here is the transcripts the PAX Q&As on Darth Hater with a mention about SGRs coming in The Old Republic:
Day One Day Two

This is another quote from Mr. Gaider regarding Bioware's stance on SGRA in their games in general:


Quote: Originally Posted by David Gaider
The romances in the game are not for "the straight male gamer". They're for everyone. We have a lot of fans, many of whom are neither straight nor male, and they deserve no less attention. We have good numbers, after all, on the number of people who actually used similar sorts of content in DAO and thus don't need to resort to anecdotal evidence to support our idea that their numbers are not insignificant... and that's ignoring the idea that they don't have just as much right to play the kind of game they wish as anyone else.

5) Will I end up "tricked" into starting a same gender romance?


I'll just let Mr. Reid himself answer that question.

Quote: Originally Posted by Stephen Reid
Lastly for those of you who seem concerned that you will be 'tricked' into any romance arc in the game - all romance choices are clearly marked. You will be aware you're making those choices as you make them.
6) Has anyone heard of more updates and not just "Soon"?


This is a quote from the Guild Summit:

Quote: Originally Posted by Daniel Erickson
(The question, gathered from online submissions, was summed up as, "Is there any update on same gender romance?")


This is an interesting one because it sort of lit up, and we didn't honestly -- if we should give an update on it every single time -- We've always said the same thing with it, which is that it's coming, and it's coming with story updates. And we totally understand when people hear "soon", um, maybe I should have put the TM next to it that, "writer Soon"? The writers have a much, much larger lead time than you would expect, and we wanna do any of this stuff right. We heard suggestions, and we do read the stuff, and let's talk a little about the stuff we were not willing to do. We were not willing to go in and just change all the dialogue to work for the other gender. That is not writing. That is not good storytelling.
There hasn’t been any new information at this time. We’ll continue to update this FAQ as answers become available.


7) Why wasn't SGR in at launch?



Take it away again Mr Erickson!

Quote:
When we do this, we wanna do it right, we wanna do it with the characters that make sense, that we always knew that we wanted to do it for those, so you guys know and we've talked about it before, it ended up being a budget and scheduling issue. There are romance arcs that we wanted to do that didn't make it in the game, we knew which characters (I'm not gonna tell you)... [some audience joking about characters] So the short answer is, it's never changed, it's still coming, it's coming when full story comes, and when is full story coming? This year. So we are still on track.

8) Isn't George Lucas opposed to SGR?


If the original owner of the IP(in this case Lucas) says no to something, it stays that way. A company can not use an IP and say, "Yes, X will be there. No doubt, it's being worked on" if the original owner said it wasn’t going to happen. This simply becomes a bad business move. It's detrimental to lie about something like that. Especially to customers and even more so to investors. Not to mention that would make said company liable for a lawsuit. In short, if Lucas didn't approve, they would have never started talking about SGRs in any of the Star Wars Bioware games the first place. Besides, there is already a precedent for this content in the Star Wars Extended Universe. Which leads me to the next question...


9) Is SGR even canonically in Star Wars?


There are plenty of examples of SGRs in the Star Wars IP. In the games, it began with original Knights of the Old Republic in 2003, with the companion Juhani, who would only romance female Revans. There was also a same gender romance in the books as well, with Goran Beviin, who's husband was Medrit Vasur. Goran was first featured in the e-book Boba Fett: A Practical Man. The two of them were later fully realized in the book Sacrifice, both of which were by created by author Karen Traviss. They are officially recognized as canon.


10) Wouldn't extra flirt options take away from dialogue options from the wheel?


A very popular suggestion is to move all [Flirt] dialogues onto the left side of the wheel. I suspect that Bioware has already considered that eventuality and are planning for it. I personally don’t believe that the developers will take away options just for SGR content.


11)Is this going to be like DA2?(aka everyone is bi/"herosexuality")


The developers, at the Guild Summit, stated that they have known from the beginning who was going to be available for SGRs. No more information has been given at the time of this writing, so we enjoy speculating about whom may be available when the SGR patch drops.


12) Is this going to be "pay for gay" and only available as an expansion?


This is a tricky one to answer, simply because there is no official information at this time. However, some of the posters have tried their hand to answer this question. Thanks to MusedMoose for the great answer below!

Quote: Originally Posted by MusedMoose
I think the confusion here - which tends to persist - is the term "future expansion content" was used when someone from BioWare first talked about when SGRs would be added. Too many people latched onto the word 'expansion' and assumed 'expansion pack', not realizing that "future expansion content" pretty much means anything that adds new content to the game. Besides, we've been told that SGRs will be coming with new story content this year, and less than a year is far, far too short of a time for a game like this to have an expansion pack like other MMOs have.

I'd also like to think that BioWare is aware of how having to pay extra to get SGR content would be perceived, and would not like to deal with that controversy. I don't think anyone's against paying for a full expansion that raises the level cap and provides tons of new content, though.

I hope this covers most of the common questions that new posters have in this thread. This is no means a complete list. Answers will be updated as new information has been released. The main things we strive for in the thread is constructive and respectful conversation. Feel free to be silly or be serious, but always be respectful for the choices of others. Again, thanks to all the posters of this thread!

natashina's Avatar


natashina
03.23.2012 , 05:52 AM | #10
I've been reading the thread over the last couple of days and I would like to share this thought. Too much blame gets put onto Bioware for the lack of SGRs among other things, when the publisher could have as much if not more to do with it. Some people are automatically trying to accuse Bioware of shortchanging the LGBT player as some sort of deliberate act. I really think this isn't the case. A lot of those kinds of decisions(that lead to time constraints) are the publishers wanting the product to be shipped out the door asap. This leaves the poor development company trying to patch or otherwise work on content they intended to be in the game at the start. I love Bioware games, but EA has had a rather shady history of rushing products or trying to milk the consumer. I give BW a ton of credit for sticking to their guns and continuing to work on SGRs despite EA rushing ToR out the door. Even with a rather hurried release, it's still the most solid launch from an mmo I've ever seen.

The quotes from the devs at Bioware have given me every reason to believe that they are determined to give a solid product for all the many types of people that play this game. I get leery of their publisher, but the devs have proven my faith in the game company time and time again.