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PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs

MasterKayote's Avatar


MasterKayote
03.26.2012 , 08:13 AM | #201
Quote: Originally Posted by Marak View Post
The high end pushes the game forward and makes it relevant to the gamer community as a whole.
Oh really?

That doesnt make any sense to me what so ever.

Youre saying its the "high end", not the devs, who push the game forward? So without the "high end" the devs would just sit back holding off new content from us until they felt like it? Somehow I doubt that.

And whats all this about making things relevant to the gamer community? I dont get it ...

Matte_Black's Avatar


Matte_Black
03.26.2012 , 08:15 AM | #202
Quote: Originally Posted by Vankris View Post
Somehow dps meter seems to be frightning some people, i don't understand why, they are tools to help you.

I place them on the very same level as your HP bar, your energy bar, or your buff bar, they give you information about you, your group and the boss.

Can you imagine a boss without a HP bar, you have no idea what life left on the boss, then he suddenly drop dead, but you didn't see it coming.

Somehow, HP bar are widely accepted among player, while DPS/HPS/TPS bar aren't.

Buff bar is widely accepted in the community, but seeing who go hit by the cleave or the fire on the ground, people don't wont to know.

I don't get it
If you go back to some of the Guild Summit comments, BioWare talks alot about displaying combat information in more cinematic ways. Visual effects as opposed to buff/debuff icons. There direction seems to be toward giving visual cues as to what is going as opposed to direct textual and numeric methods. For instance, you could totally have barless health where the opponent looks bloodier and wearier as his health decreases. Nailing that down and having it work at lower graphic settings would be prohibitive still but, many would welcome players that format.

I totally understand that many players have developed a taste for a playstyle with alot of incoming metrics data and they enjoy it but, BioWare is very much about wrapping video games in story and an immersive virtual reality NOT pulling back the curtain for streamlined competitive play. They allow it as they can but, their first priority is maintaining the adventure and part of that is distracting the players seeking their style of experience from numbers and programming behind it all.

Data-driven play isn't something wrong or evil but, players need to realize that BioWare allows that as long as it does not encroach upon their intended experience for this game. That means the onus shifts to working for the info one wants to maintain a barrier preventing hard numbers being forced into the the play of your more story-oriented players. Being judged is part of it but, piercing that veil shrouding the inner workings of the game is the larger issue.
"I really wanted to bring in the three BioWare pillars to the online space. Those are represented by story, by the player's choice in story, and by characters. Those are the three big things that I felt weren't really well represented in the MMO space." - James Ohlen

Matte_Black's Avatar


Matte_Black
03.26.2012 , 08:21 AM | #203
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterKayote View Post
Youre saying its the "high end", not the devs, who push the game forward? So without the "high end" the devs would just sit back holding off new content from us until they felt like it? Somehow I doubt that.
They definitely push the game in the direction but, I would say BioWare and many of this game's players might question whether the high-enders really are pushing it "forward", at least as it concerns the intended play experience goals for this game. This more an adventure game than an eSport and I think many see "forward" as being toward story-oriented play and away from from hard metrics.
"I really wanted to bring in the three BioWare pillars to the online space. Those are represented by story, by the player's choice in story, and by characters. Those are the three big things that I felt weren't really well represented in the MMO space." - James Ohlen

Seregul's Avatar


Seregul
03.26.2012 , 08:26 AM | #204
Quote: Originally Posted by Matte_Black View Post
If you go back to some of the Guild Summit comments, BioWare talks alot about displaying combat information in more cinematic ways. Visual effects as opposed to buff/debuff icons. There direction seems to be toward giving visual cues as to what is going as opposed to direct textual and numeric methods. For instance, you could totally have barless health where the opponent looks bloodier and wearier as his health decreases. Nailing that down and having it work at lower graphic settings would be prohibitive still but, many would welcome players that format.

I totally understand that many players have developed a taste for a playstyle with alot of incoming metrics data and they enjoy it but, BioWare is very much about wrapping video games in story and an immersive virtual reality NOT pulling back the curtain for streamlined competitive play. They allow it as they can but, their first priority is maintaining the adventure and part of that is distracting the players seeking their style of experience from numbers and programming behind it all.

Data-driven play isn't something wrong or evil but, players need to realize that BioWare allows that as long as it does not encroach upon their intended experience for this game. That means the onus shifts to working for the info one wants to maintain a barrier preventing hard numbers being forced into the the play of your more story-oriented players. Being judged is part of it but, piercing that veil shrouding the inner workings of the game is the larger issue.
If you really believe this then this game must make you furious, because I see numbers everywhere.

Marak's Avatar


Marak
03.26.2012 , 08:28 AM | #205
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterKayote View Post
Oh really?

That doesnt make any sense to me what so ever.

Youre saying its the "high end", not the devs, who push the game forward? So without the "high end" the devs would just sit back holding off new content from us until they felt like it? Somehow I doubt that.

And whats all this about making things relevant to the gamer community? I dont get it ...
Raids are designed for the high end. Encounter gimmicks, class abilities, and content in general were designed for a certain subset of people that are going to apply min/max tactics to defeat challenging content. You don't get the Plane of Time without boss encounters. You don't get Northrend without Arthas. You need hard raid content to sell the drama/relevance of content. It's just the way MMOs have always been.

Frostvein's Avatar


Frostvein
03.26.2012 , 08:52 AM | #206
Quote:
Somehow dps meter seems to be frightning some people, i don't understand why, they are tools to help you.
There are a few reasons, some valid and some ridiculous.

The most common argument against them that I've seen is the classic "I was kicked from (some form of content in another MMO, usually WoW) for not doing enough (healing, damage) and I don't want that here"

The reality of the situation is that if anyone of those people spent 15 minutes or so looking up the proper gearing and rotation they would be completely fine.

Its like this -

"I don't have time to look that stuff up!"
err, you have time to complain on the forums about meters endlessly, but no time to research a rotation or proper gearing?
"Well, I shouldn't have to!"
Well, we shouldn't have to carry you, either.

I'm all for in game meters that are disabled during story mode content. However, they should be available for those that want them for HM/Nightmare.
Meanwhile, in Tera general chat -

"The sad thing is, arguing with fanbois on the forums was more entertaining than their 300 million dollar single player MMO from 2008"

Matte_Black's Avatar


Matte_Black
03.26.2012 , 08:54 AM | #207
Quote: Originally Posted by Seregul View Post
If you really believe this then this game must make you furious, because I see numbers everywhere.
I would venture to guess I react to things much more mildly than you judging from the tones of our posts. I accept what numbers are in this game, would prefer they were less visible and am definitely against increasing the focus on them by the playerbase or having them play a larger role in my game and on my screen.
"I really wanted to bring in the three BioWare pillars to the online space. Those are represented by story, by the player's choice in story, and by characters. Those are the three big things that I felt weren't really well represented in the MMO space." - James Ohlen

Vankris's Avatar


Vankris
03.26.2012 , 09:03 AM | #208
Quote: Originally Posted by Matte_Black View Post
If you go back to some of the Guild Summit comments, BioWare talks alot about displaying combat information in more cinematic ways. Visual effects as opposed to buff/debuff icons. There direction seems to be toward giving visual cues as to what is going as opposed to direct textual and numeric methods. For instance, you could totally have barless health where the opponent looks bloodier and wearier as his health decreases. Nailing that down and having it work at lower graphic settings would be prohibitive still but, many would welcome players that format.

I totally understand that many players have developed a taste for a playstyle with alot of incoming metrics data and they enjoy it but, BioWare is very much about wrapping video games in story and an immersive virtual reality NOT pulling back the curtain for streamlined competitive play. They allow it as they can but, their first priority is maintaining the adventure and part of that is distracting the players seeking their style of experience from numbers and programming behind it all.

Data-driven play isn't something wrong or evil but, players need to realize that BioWare allows that as long as it does not encroach upon their intended experience for this game. That means the onus shifts to working for the info one wants to maintain a barrier preventing hard numbers being forced into the the play of your more story-oriented players. Being judged is part of it but, piercing that veil shrouding the inner workings of the game is the larger issue.

They are some truth in what you say, but there is some i don't agree with.


Visual clue

very good idea indeed, but, it will never replace a combat log for analysis of an encounter.

what visual can do is
- replace DBM: totally agree with this approach, instead of having a DBM warning, you not have the game itself warn you somehow.

- procs. the game does not do it and it should. I play a jedi shadow tank. There is a proc called accelerated particule, when this proc, i have a few seconds to use project, which make it a garanty crit, thus the most interesting spell to use. However, to see the proc, i must stare consistently at the buff bar, to identify a tiny icon signifying i can use project.

wouldn't it be nicer if i was staring a my jedi and it's acrobatic fighting style and see some kind of visual effect, like an aura or something, telling me i can now use project. Yes to visual effect.

- Blood on the boss instead of life en % or raw number, i don't believe in it. I may be possible in a different game, but i don't see star wars doing it, it's not the way it is constructed.

For example, old FPS were based on having an HP bar (half-life) whereas modern FPS, you just have a system of regenrating health (call of duty). But i don't see half-life suddenly changing to a regen life model, the game is simply not build that way. Same for SWTOR, he is build around Health Pool and DPS and HPS, i don't see it changing it's core mechanic that easily.



Story Driven

It is indeed a major strong point of star wars, but i don't see the story carrying it for 7 years. You have to think how to maintain the game the years to come. Yes right now the game has ton of content, tons of story and can last several month still, but expansion will never be as large as the game itself, and the story will not carry the game in 2014, in 2015.

What will carry the game is gameplay. Competitive gameplay. What does carry modern warfare games? What does carry starcraft games?

MasterKayote's Avatar


MasterKayote
03.26.2012 , 09:21 AM | #209
Quote: Originally Posted by Marak View Post
Raids are designed for the high end. Encounter gimmicks, class abilities, and content in general were designed for a certain subset of people that are going to apply min/max tactics to defeat challenging content. You don't get the Plane of Time without boss encounters. You don't get Northrend without Arthas. You need hard raid content to sell the drama/relevance of content. It's just the way MMOs have always been.
Yeah I dont buy that at all. The "high end" are simply the guys that get their first. They'll "kill Arthas" first but high end number crunchers arent the only ones that beat HM Raids in this or any game ... theyre just the guys that beat it in a week (or less) rather than a month then possibly complain/quit because there is nothing to do until the next content patch.

Raids arent "designed" specifically for them, theyre there as a goal for everyone. Encounter gimmicks and class abilities? What? I dont even know how you would come to such a conclusion. So basically youre claiming that anything outside of story and questing was made for high end players? No ... just no.

The devs dont need the high end players to make Arthas or Northrend and I dont know about the rest of the gaming community but I sure as hell dont need them to give any relevance to my gaming. There are all types of gamers out there. While im sure there are some who couldnt care less about raids or even grouping up, we all want the content, we all strive to beat "Arthas" ... we all drive the game forward by consuming the content.

Stupiddrummer's Avatar


Stupiddrummer
03.26.2012 , 09:27 AM | #210
Quote: Originally Posted by Matte_Black View Post
If you go back to some of the Guild Summit comments, BioWare talks alot about displaying combat information in more cinematic ways. Visual effects as opposed to buff/debuff icons. There direction seems to be toward giving visual cues as to what is going as opposed to direct textual and numeric methods. For instance, you could totally have barless health where the opponent looks bloodier and wearier as his health decreases. Nailing that down and having it work at lower graphic settings would be prohibitive still but, many would welcome players that format.

I totally understand that many players have developed a taste for a playstyle with alot of incoming metrics data and they enjoy it but, BioWare is very much about wrapping video games in story and an immersive virtual reality NOT pulling back the curtain for streamlined competitive play. They allow it as they can but, their first priority is maintaining the adventure and part of that is distracting the players seeking their style of experience from numbers and programming behind it all.

Data-driven play isn't something wrong or evil but, players need to realize that BioWare allows that as long as it does not encroach upon their intended experience for this game. That means the onus shifts to working for the info one wants to maintain a barrier preventing hard numbers being forced into the the play of your more story-oriented players. Being judged is part of it but, piercing that veil shrouding the inner workings of the game is the larger issue.
Bioware/EA is very fluent in market-speak. Don't feel bad though they had me fooled at one point, too.

Remember how exciting and immersive they said the space combat would be? They didn't exactly lie, they just embellished on a lot of adjectives, and made a point to be incredibly vague.

How much more vague can it get than "combat information displayed in cinematic ways?" This is a game founded on rolling a D20, not trying to find meaning in an interpretive dance.